Podcast Marketing Is About Finding Your Podcast Besties with Lauren Passell of Tink Media + How to Get Featured on Apple Podcasts
Podcast Bestie, the Podcast
Episode 6 Show Notes
Guest: Lauren Passell, founder of Tink Media and Podcast The Newsletter
Host: Courtney Kocak, Podcast Bestie founder
Hey Besties! Can't afford PR right now? Don't worry — Sweet Mama Swap is in the house to help you get started all by yourself! That's right, today's guest is Lauren Passell, the founder of Tink Media, and she's giving us the Tink treatment for free, generously sharing the strategies she uses to help her clients get coverage and grow their shows. She dishes her expert advice on how to make podcast collaboration effective, fun, and EASY, land a coveted Apple Podcasts feature, pitch bigger shows for feed swaps, get good press, and more. This is a master class in podcast marketing from a PR master.
Connect with Lauren @laurenpassell on Twitter and Instagram.
Subscribe to Lauren’s newsletters Podcast The Newsletter and Podcast Marketing Magic.
Sign up for my Pandemic University Grow Your Show and Make Money Podcasting One-Day Intensive.
If you missed the last episode, check out Cross-Media Promotions for Your Podcast with Anna Van Valin of Every Day is a Food Day.
Thanks to Michael Castañeda for mixing and mastering this episode. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram @plasticaudio.
A big thanks to our BFFs for sponsoring this episode:
mowPod is an effective, targeted way to promote your show. It's already trusted by industry giants like Conde Nast, iHeartMedia, and HubSpot Podcast Network, and that's because it works. But mowPod isn’t just for the big guys — mowPod Boost is perfect for indie podcasters. It’s actually been my favorite paid advertising experiment to date, and you can try it for just $100. Plus, if you are a Bestie, you get 10% off with this link: https://boost.mowpod.com/?referrer=podcastbestie. Try it, and let me know what you think!
The Wild West Extravaganza is a weekly history podcast that delves into the fascinating and often tumultuous world of the American Old West. From famous outlaws like Billy the Kid and Jesse James to lawmen like Wyatt Earp and Wild Bill Hickok to Native Americans and trailblazing pioneers and frontiersmen, this podcast tells the true stories of the real-life characters who shaped this iconic period in American history. So, saddle up and discover the true history of the American frontier — the good, the bad, and the ugly. It’s a journey you don’t want to miss. Listen to The Wild West Extravaganza on your favorite podcast player and follow @wildwestxtra on Twitter.
If you want to sponsor a future newsletter AND episode, you can purchase your ad spot here.
I’ve also got a FREE promo opportunity for the Besties: Leave a five-star rating with a review on Apple Podcasts, email me a screenshot with your name and the name of your podcast, and you’ll get a free shout-out on the next episode.
💸 Wanna advertise on Podcast Bestie? Here’s info about offerings and rates.
TRANSCRIPT (This is a rough AI-generated transcript for immediate accessibility, please excuse any mistakes.)
[00:00:03] LAUREN PASSELL: Hi, my name is Lauren Passell and the founder of Tink Media and I write podcast, the newsletter. [00:00:08][4.5]
[00:00:09] COURTNEY KOCAK: Hey, podcast besties. Welcome back to the show dedicated to making your podcast the best it can be. I'm Courtney Kocak, your BFF, and helping you grow and monetize your show. And I am so excited about today's guest. It is none other than podcast ING's Lauren Purcell. She is a brilliant podcast marketer, a PR master. She owns a company called Tink. And not just that, but she's a delightful human and a best friend of the podcast. So anyway, I am so stoked to share this episode with you today because we are getting the TINK treatment for free. Lauren is so generous in sharing the strategies that she uses to help her clients get coverage and grow their shows. And maybe coolest of all, she shares her tips for how to get your podcast featured on Apple Podcasts. We all know how coveted this placement is, and it just so happens to be my goal with this episode. So hey, call me Apple podcasts. Besties. I hope you're listening on Apple because I mean, come on, what an O.G. listening platform. Amazing curation. What else can I say? Apple, I love you. Okay, without further ado, let's dive in with Lauren. [00:01:27][78.2]
[00:01:28] COURTNEY KOCAK: We have so much to talk about. But first, Lauren, let's get your podcasting origin story. [00:01:33][4.5]
[00:01:34] LAUREN PASSELL: Okay. Well, to go way back, I was terribly injured and on crutches and walking around New York City and I wanted things to entertain me. So I think that's how I started listening to this podcast called The Champs, which was with Neil Brennan and Moshe Kasher. And I had to listen, like on the website, on my phone, like I didn't even use one player, but that was like what got me obsessed. And then Cereal came out and I love cereal, and I was working in book publishing at the time, and it was back in the days where there weren't that many podcasts and I would go to Max Fun E-Com and just be like, Whatever they have is all I'm going to listen to. Like. So I loved a podcast called Podcast Podcast about podcasts. And when I was working in the publishing house, I worked for Little Brown. I was not on the PR marketing team, but the PR team knew that I loved podcasts, so they would say things like they wanted me helping them, getting our authors on podcasts to talk about their books. And I remember one time they said, Can you get David Sedaris on the podcasts? And I was like, Oh my gosh, I dream about this. Like when I listen to podcasts, I'm like, David Sedaris should be on this. So I'll never forget I emailed Anna Sale and she responded and I thought, Oh my God, Like, to me, Amazon is the biggest celebrity of all time. And I can't I can't believe it. I was like, This works. So I started doing it and it wasn't my job. And I was like, I think this is something. And I left. I didn't want to leave. I love that job. But I went to work for a podcast company and then I left there to start Tank, which was originally helping authors get on podcasts, talk about their books, because that was the world that I knew. And the more I started talking to podcasters, booking my clients, I was like, Oh, they don't have a marketing plan and they don't know anything about marketing. And they started asking me things. They were like, I know they will seriously, and they would be like, Can you do this? And I'd be like, I guess so, because no one else is, So I'll figure it out. And so the whole company has evolved just from people asking me if I can do things and kind of figuring out how to do them. And now I always thought it would just be me and my couch and my laptop. And now it is a big company with eight people and we have tons of clients and do so many things beyond just helping people grow their shows. We do a lot of fun things. I'm always saying to my team, we always have to have something going on that is really fun and takes up tons of time but makes us no money. It's just pure fun. [00:04:04][149.9]
[00:04:04] COURTNEY KOCAK: That's the best way to do business. Is it? [00:04:07][2.1]
[00:04:07] LAUREN PASSELL: Okay, Thank you very much. [00:04:08][1.7]
[00:04:09] COURTNEY KOCAK: Subscribe to that and that is why I'm broke. [00:04:11][1.7]
[00:04:12] LAUREN PASSELL: Exactly. [00:04:12][0.0]
[00:04:13] COURTNEY KOCAK: So what did you do in book publishing before? What was your actual job? [00:04:17][4.2]
[00:04:18] LAUREN PASSELL: I was on the acquisitions board and I did social media for the house. So the acquisitions board is like, you know, should we buy. [00:04:26][8.2]
[00:04:26] COURTNEY KOCAK: This or not? [00:04:27][0.4]
[00:04:27] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah, and we'd be sitting in a room and we'd read manuscripts and debate whether or not it was worth it and look at comps. But then I was also running the social media handles. I also started their book club program and their influencer program. So I was in community and stuff like that and also working closely with the authors. So I worked with each author for their social media campaigns. And really I think I do love working with creative people and helping them with their stuff instead of making my own stuff. I think that's what I learned there. [00:04:57][30.1]
[00:04:57] COURTNEY KOCAK: Don't you think there should be more podcasts that become books or. They are iterated in that way or vice versa. I just feel like the book to podcast or vice versa pipeline should be a lot better than it is. [00:05:11][13.5]
[00:05:11] LAUREN PASSELL: I think there's a huge gap in those two worlds. I think one problem is podcasts are so fast moving and techie and publishing is in the dinosaur days, it's stuck. And even like I even think that books should be advertising on podcasts. Yes, they're not spending ad money there, or I should be hearing advertisements for books, but I don't. So I think that there is a humongous gap there. I actually started a company at the same time I started Tank called Lasso, and it was supposed to be a company that helped people turn their podcast in the books. And the problem that we ran into there was a lot of times IP, it was an issue of IP. [00:05:54][43.1]
[00:05:55] COURTNEY KOCAK: What was the issue? [00:05:55][0.5]
[00:05:56] LAUREN PASSELL: The creators didn't own their IP, so they didn't have the rights to make their books from their own shows. And I think that probably that was a few years ago, which is 100 million years ago in podcast time. And so that got me on the path of starting to look at podcast contracts and realizing that, I mean, I get it. I had my little podcast. If I had come to me and said, Can we make your podcast? I would have been like, Yes, please, thank you very much. I'll sign anything. And I would have signed away every seven years of no money and whatever. That would have been thrilling. So I see how this happens. I don't think people sometimes look at their contracts enough to look, and that IP thing is huge. I think that might be one of the issues, but yeah, I would love to see more of it. I'm always thinking of that. I'm all in my dreams. I think I want to read this or I'm, you know, the other way around. I hope to see more of that in the future. Maybe you're the maybe you're going to be the one that does it. [00:06:53][56.6]
[00:06:53] COURTNEY KOCAK: A man, I hope I because I'm always like, you have to do the interviews anyway. Like if you're doing some reporting for your book project or whatever, it's like you have to do it anyway, so you might as well record. [00:07:05][11.5]
[00:07:06] LAUREN PASSELL: It. [00:07:06][0.0]
[00:07:06] COURTNEY KOCAK: And like make it into the podcast as you're writing the book. Like they are separate arts, but they very much lend themselves to each other. So we'll see. And I do think podcast contracts, you know, over the last couple of years, I feel like as big podcasting has shut down some beloved shows, there has been more of a conversation about like, okay, but why can't they continue with their idea, which has changed the contract conversation a little bit, I think, but I'm sure it's still an issue. [00:07:36][30.3]
[00:07:37] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah, I think that was like a big deal with all those BuzzFeed shows when they got shut down. It was kind of like that outraged everyone that kind of got a little bit of attention, but then people kind of stopped paying attention. I'm hoping that that kind of changed the way that these contracts are being made. But I do think I mean, it's also just storytelling. It seems so natural. Maybe I think maybe this is going to be you. Maybe you can be the one to do it. [00:08:02][24.7]
[00:08:02] COURTNEY KOCAK: I love the premonition. [00:08:03][0.5]
[00:08:03] LAUREN PASSELL: There's also there have been people that have been doing this successfully, like Macmillan is a publishing house that has a lot of shows that aren't just book shows like we're going to interview an author. They use their authors to make shows like That's How Grammar Girl started. So using their talent, using the authors to create podcasts, they I think that they were innovative in doing that. And then I also just think there's a real need for book podcasts. I think yours is brilliant because your podcast answers those questions that people pay to hear. They want to know the dirt that what is the hard stuff, right? What exactly does that look like? That's what people want to know. And then I was just talking with someone who has a podcast that explores the first page of novels with their authors. [00:08:49][45.7]
[00:08:49] COURTNEY KOCAK: I love that. I like. [00:08:50][1.0]
[00:08:51] LAUREN PASSELL: This. Like when when there's a way and when it's not just like interviewing authors about their books. Like those can be great, but it seems like there should be so many more ways to combine these two worlds. Yes. [00:09:00][9.3]
[00:09:01] COURTNEY KOCAK: Amen. Okay. So Tink is named after Tinker Bell. You're obsessed. You're a Disney girl. I always think of. You think the company as podcasting glow. [00:09:11][10.4]
[00:09:12] LAUREN PASSELL: Oh, I think of you as. [00:09:14][1.9]
[00:09:15] COURTNEY KOCAK: The gorgeous ladies of podcasting, which is not as sexy of an acronym. I'm glad you think, but. [00:09:21][6.1]
[00:09:21] LAUREN PASSELL: Oh, I love that so much. Oh, my God. If we could all be glow. Yes. I mean, I have my name picked out. [00:09:27][5.7]
[00:09:28] COURTNEY KOCAK: Did you pick out a name? No one else that I wasn't even going to ask. [00:09:30][2.8]
[00:09:31] LAUREN PASSELL: Call me Sweet Mama Swap. How is that? Who we love is love. [00:09:35][4.2]
[00:09:36] COURTNEY KOCAK: I love it. Okay, so besties. I asked the two ladies. [00:09:40][4.0]
[00:09:41] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah. [00:09:41][0.0]
[00:09:41] COURTNEY KOCAK: I was like, I don't know if this works, but if you have a glow style name based on podcast promotion, I would love it. And Lauren is so down she actually came up with. [00:09:52][10.2]
[00:09:53] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah, call me Sweet Mama Spot from now on. [00:09:54][1.7]
[00:09:55] COURTNEY KOCAK: So yeah let's talk about what you do it tank And I feel like you guys are the masters of this. Out of the box creative style promotion. So let's get into the nitty gritty of like what you guys do and then like how indie people can kind of try to replicate this. [00:10:11][16.0]
[00:10:12] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah, well, I think a lot of times we sit down with clients when we're doing a kickoff call and they think we're going to want to talk about, you know, pitching to The New York Times and spending money on ads and social media and also pitching to apps. You know, those are like the four things they they think I'm going to want to talk about. And I do. We have really strong beliefs about where to spend money if you have it. We don't think you need to spend money. We have strong feelings about social media. We think it's good for the audience. You have that growth. And when I tell people this, there's usually two reactions. It's either, Oh my gosh, thank goodness. And that signals to me that they want to make a good show. They want to spend their time making a good show or they argue with me and they're like, That's not true. I get a lot of likes on my tweets and I'm like, That means you have really nice friends and you're in an echo chamber and they like your tweets and they might not be listening. So anyway, if you polled people that were featured in The New York Times, I'm sure they would say it led to no growth. But it's very cool. So the things that I do like to talk about are about partnerships and a partnership. A good partnership might not give you a spike in getting featured an app, Well, hopefully buying an advertisement. Well, but the partnership thing is a lot harder to do. Can't just throw money at it. It takes a long time. But I do believe and I have seen proof that ongoing partnerships with the right people will bring your perfect audience to you and they are going to become your biggest advocates, your biggest fans. They're going to come back every time and they're going to tell their friends about you. And a friend recommendation of a podcast is better than anything that you can do with an ad. So the first thing I do when I get a client, I put myself a glass of wine and I open up a spreadsheet and I make a list of my clients podcast friends. That's so cute. [00:12:06][113.5]
[00:12:06] COURTNEY KOCAK: I have to say, you just get romantic. [00:12:07][1.4]
[00:12:08] LAUREN PASSELL: With your spreadsheet. Oh, usually when I tell my clients this, I'm like, This is a little cheesy, and you might have to think about it, but I know that you're down with this like, language and thinking about friendship, podcast, friendship, right? Like, yes. And so we make a list of the podcast friends. I'm like, basically, who are the partners, the potential partners? And then I put them on a play date. I'm like, What is the play date going to be? What is the partnership? I know the partners, so I, I know what they have and I know what they want because I work with them, I study them, I listen to their work, and then I think about my client, What does my client have and what do we want and how do we work together? So it's actually a lot of negotiating and bartering. And I do believe the more creative idea that we come up with, the more effective it will be. [00:12:52][43.8]
[00:12:52] COURTNEY KOCAK: Yeah, because it looks like content then, right? Or it is content if done right. So yeah, can you kind of illustrate that a little bit? Do you have an example of a really great play date that just looked like amazing content that was an effective partnership? [00:13:10][17.8]
[00:13:11] LAUREN PASSELL: Yes. My favorite example is we had this podcast called How to do the Pot, and it's hosted by Ellen Scanlon, and she's sick of this whole like dude for 20 L.O.L. Bro conversation happened around cannabis. She's like, smart women are asking smart questions about weed and what it does to their cycles, etc. So every month, I mean, the cadence varied a little bit, but basically she would have two highly produced episodes a month that took a lot of time and were expensive. She hired researchers the other two weeks for free. And what she did was she came up with this question, which is tell me about the first time you bought legal weed. And it became a question that defined the show. So we could do so many things with this one idea. We asked people to tell their story in the Apple Podcast range and reviews because a lot of times people want to leave you a rating and review, but they don't know what to say. And this is so genius. You do this on podcast, bestie, you tell people something to say in their review, so they're much more likely to do it, especially if they think they might be featured on the show. Or you could say, you know, tell me your favorite appetizer. I don't know anything that makes sense for your show that just gets them going. So this question also, Ellen would get pitched a lot and people wanted to be on the show all the time. And sometimes it wasn't a right fit or she didn't have the time. It wasn't good content for her content counter. So she would just say, send me a five minute voice memo of you telling the story about the first time you bought legal weed. So now we're engaging with these people who want to be on her show. And also they were getting 80 to 85% as many downloads as the things that were taking her tons of time to make. And I thought it was nice because sometimes when people see a feed, it's a nice way to like, test it out if. They see a five minute episode. They might give it a try. And it was helping Ellen's listeners, which is why she was asking this question in the first place. For a lot of us. Bindweed was the legal most of our lives. So doing it is scary or funny or there's you know, Ellen wanted people that hadn't done it before to hear other women talking about it so they could feel empowered to do it themselves. So the other thing that this did was it allowed us to go out to these podcast friends that I want. They weren't our friends yet. And I would say, Can Ellen be on your show because you can have your own episode of How did You Do the Pot? All you have to do is send us a five minute voice memo. It wasn't like, let's coordinate dates and do you, you know, what's your recording situation? And it was simple, a simple ask. That was great. Content added value to the show totally gelled with the show vibe to the show and helped us go out to people that were like a little bit bigger than Ellen to even just get their attention or work with them in some way. It was a way that that was good content but just also helped us grow. Yes. [00:16:04][172.4]
[00:16:04] COURTNEY KOCAK: So you were one of my inspirations. You know, I do think there is something to this shorter episodes being like a really good gateway into a show. I'm that way sometimes. Sometimes I'll listen to all the short episodes on a feed and then I'll go into the longer ones, like What a Psycho. So I'm trying to play to that as well. And I've gotten advice from a couple of people like Short Episode, so I'm doing these quickies and I might take it even a step further where it's like you guys do where it's something that I don't even have to touch. I send them like a document telling them how to do it and then they can send it over. It's a really smart collaboration tool tool. And if people are used to getting things in those timeslots, it's really easy to swap them out for feed drops as well. [00:16:53][48.6]
[00:16:53] LAUREN PASSELL: Exactly. And there's people like me and area we call ourselves the Colin Girls. Like if you say, you know, send us your voicemail, there's people that really, you know, if they hear themselves, they're going to share that episode with everyone. If they get to be on an episode like. [00:17:09][15.0]
[00:17:09] COURTNEY KOCAK: Hey, besties. I have a really exciting milestone that I want to share with you. Podcast Bestie has just hit 15,000 downloads as of this recording, and that is just with five episodes out. This is episode number six, so I am so stoked. I have already surpassed my goal of 10,000 downloads for this first season and I'm well on my way to, who knows, 30,000. I don't even know what to set the new goal at and I could not be happier with the growth of this show. Thank you so much for listening. And I have to say, it could not have been done without the help of our season one sponsor, and that is Mo Pod. And if you don't know, Mo Pod is an effective, targeted way to promote your show. It's already trusted by industry giants like Conde Nast, Iheartmedia and the HubSpot Podcast Network. And that's because it works. And listen, Bopara pod isn't just for the big guys. Mo Pod Boost is perfect for indie podcasters like me and you, right? It's actually been my favorite paid advertising experiment to date and you can try it for just $100. Plus, if you're a bestie, you get 10% off with the link in the description. Listen, besties. You work hard on your podcast. You would not be listening to this show if you didn't and you invest a lot of time, so it's worth it to invest some money to help your audience find you. And then you have more success to barter with and collab with and do all that good stuff. So try it out and let me know what you think. Hey besties, I want to turn you on to a podcast that I think you're going to love if you're anything like me. The Wild West Extravaganza is a weekly history podcast that delves into the fascinating and often tumultuous world of the American Old West from famous outlaws like Billy the Kid and Jesse James, to lawman like Wyatt Earp and Wild Bill Hickok to Native Americans and trailblazing pioneers and frontiersmen. This podcast tells the true stories of the real life characters who shaped this iconic period in American history. So saddle up and discover the true history of the American frontier. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It's a journey you don't want to miss. Tune into the Wild West extravaganza wherever you listen to podcasts and check out Wild West Extra Score. Okay, So let's talk about people come to you with this other idea of what it's going to be. And really, it's a lot more collaboration than that. But as an indie podcaster, I do also want to be featured on the platforms and I do want some good write ups and I do want those other. Things. So what are ways that you can pursue that in a way that is like sustainable and won't make you lose your mind? [00:20:09][180.1]
[00:20:10] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah, I mean, I think you should pitch yourself the apps once every few months. [00:20:14][4.3]
[00:20:15] COURTNEY KOCAK: Let's dig in on that one. How do you strategize that? And like, what do you say? And sometimes I just feel like I do it, but I just feel like it's going into the void. So then I don't do it for six months because I'm like. [00:20:28][12.5]
[00:20:29] LAUREN PASSELL: I know. Well, this is where it might help to create a party or an event for of your podcast of your show. So whether that be like a mini series, something tied to a holiday. I mean, a mini series can be anything you say it is. You could just stretch out a longer episode or do something a little bit different. Or maybe you're collecting these five minute voice memos and the mini series is just that. You know, Apple Podcasts and all the platforms, they want to look like newsfeeds. So think what would you know? And I don't listen on Apple Podcasts, but I look every day to see what they're featuring. So I would recommend doing that and noticing the kind of things that they like because what they like is a good indicator of what everybody's looking for. So, you know, that might mean if a holiday is coming up, making an episode is as long as it's not a stretch, you know, making an episode about that. And then just when you're pitching, imagine a lot of these are literally coming in to air tables or some version of it and tablets, data and a big chart. How can you get your copy to stand out in a sea of applications? People are reading this. So the subject line should never be the same and it should explain why you why now? And there's two more really important fields. They're all kind of similar, but I'm going to use Apple podcast form as an example. One of them is What region would you like to be featured in? I think everybody puts us because a lot of us are us podcasters, but it's the most crowded space to apply for. So if you know that you have a lot of listeners in Australia or Germany, I would apply in those countries because not as many people are applying. I had a American Road Trip podcast that he had a lot of listeners in Italy for some reason, and we applied in Italy and got featured in Italy. And those boost your numbers a lot. So that's one field that I think people just kind of quickly fill out and don't think about it. The other one is there's one that says something like, How are you going to market this or something like that? How are you going to fold Apple into your marketing plan? That's maybe the most important field. I would spend the most time on that. What they're asking you. [00:22:39][130.7]
[00:22:40] COURTNEY KOCAK: That without being like, just access. Like, I'll do whatever you want. [00:22:44][3.8]
[00:22:44] LAUREN PASSELL: Well, they want to see numbers. So say the more specific information you can give, the more they can see that you're invested. So you can say, I have this many listeners and they listen. You know, 90% of the time I have this many ratings. Someone has said this, you know, like I have this many Instagram followers and I'm going to say on Instagram, you know, listen on Apple Podcasts and feel free to use the word co-marketing, because what they want is a co-marketing plan that you're marketing for Apple as well. So I would just make it in that little space, make it mini marketing plan, and maybe even get specific about dates. Say that you're going to put the button on your website. You know, anything creative you can think of. I think even like reading Apple Podcasts ratings and reviews and asking for those counts, you know, like the more specific and the more creative. But I do think that is the most important field. [00:23:33][48.4]
[00:23:33] COURTNEY KOCAK: I love that. Okay. [00:23:34][0.6]
[00:23:34] LAUREN PASSELL: So I could tell. [00:23:35][1.2]
[00:23:36] COURTNEY KOCAK: Them that Season one is being sponsored by Mobile Hard Boost, and they're also helping with the advertising And every episode. I specifically ask Besties for ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts. So you're getting at least one shout out every episode. And then I could do like a hypothetical thing too. Like, I would I don't know. Would I offer anything else in this thing that I'm going to send after our conversation? [00:24:06][30.3]
[00:24:07] LAUREN PASSELL: I learn anything for a second. [00:24:08][0.9]
[00:24:09] COURTNEY KOCAK: Or like I have Lauren Purcell on. We are specifically talking about the Apple Podcasts app. Yes. And how to get featured and we're demystifying it. [00:24:20][11.3]
[00:24:20] LAUREN PASSELL: I have an. [00:24:20][0.2]
[00:24:20] COURTNEY KOCAK: Idea. Yes. Go. [00:24:21][0.9]
[00:24:22] LAUREN PASSELL: You could say, Yeah, I had an episode of Dharma Cellar talking about this field and it is going to be my goal to get featured. And when I do, I'm going to have an episode about how I got featured. Oh, yes. Okay. Apple, Come on. Come on. Yes. Try it out. I want to hear I want to hear that episode. [00:24:44][21.4]
[00:24:45] COURTNEY KOCAK: Okay. So they're really just looking for like really thought out. Obviously, numbers help, but maybe if you're an indie person, the way that you position those numbers can also help and like how much you're talking about them and it's such. [00:25:00][15.2]
[00:25:01] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah. [00:25:01][0.0]
[00:25:02] COURTNEY KOCAK: Okay. So next category that people come to you is like trying to get these write ups, trying to get decent PR shout outs. How would you suggest indie folks pursue that? [00:25:12][9.9]
[00:25:12] LAUREN PASSELL: The podcast newsletter is 100%. I mean, there's other ways, but I don't know how to tell you this, but like the podcast newsletter community is the best in the world. [00:25:21][8.6]
[00:25:21] COURTNEY KOCAK: And really. [00:25:22][0.5]
[00:25:23] LAUREN PASSELL: You know, those it's the perfect audience. It's people that are looking for something new to subscribe to. My advice is when I'm talking to people that are just dipping their toes into podcasting, I'm like, When I hang up the phone with you, subscribe to every single one I send the most and read them for a few weeks. Open them. Yes, they can tell if you're not opening them and get to know their vibes. Like, you know, James Kirkland loves news and tech and I. You're not gonna learn anything in my newsletter about those things. So I like new indie shows. I mean, James has space for that too, you know, learn who needs pitched what. James loves photos, you know, like some of sometimes they even have these things on the website. And, you know, very few people have ever emailed me and said, How do you like be pitched? I appreciate getting that email. Also, I appreciate it when someone just compliments me. If you tell me you like my dress, I'll do whatever you say, Be nice, be a person. And I like the idea of asking them how they like to be pitched. You know, ask them, Do you want advanced audio? Some people really care about that. I get a lot of chord pitches that I don't have time to read. I like it when someone responds to an newsletter that I put out because I'm absolutely going to see it, because I monitor every email I get when I send something out. Ariel of earbuds does not like that. And how would you know that if you didn't ask? So I think that that is a good way just to get attention, you know? So then if someone that I know is a subscriber reaches out to me and it's like, I love what you do, I got this recommendation for you and I really appreciated it. And here's why. I think this is a great fit for your show. Here's an episode I think you would like. Oh, also, if you have an episode about Disneyworld or Jesus or. [00:27:08][105.8]
[00:27:09] COURTNEY KOCAK: The Donner Party. [00:27:10][0.5]
[00:27:10] LAUREN PASSELL: Jadallah or the Donner Party, those, you know, those those are my categories. I will absolutely write about it no matter what. [00:27:17][7.0]
[00:27:19] COURTNEY KOCAK: Yes, totally. Okay. I am totally with you on that. I know who interacts with my newsletter. I know who's liking it. I know who is responding. I appreciate responses to the newsletter, even if you're just like. Thank you so much for always sharing the stuff. I'm like. [00:27:37][18.2]
[00:27:37] LAUREN PASSELL: Yes. [00:27:37][0.0]
[00:27:38] COURTNEY KOCAK: But that's money in the bank, baby. I know that you sent that. I'm going to remember that later. I don't like to be asked how to be pitched, but that's my own problem because I'm not telling anyone. So I will say what I do is I am trying to teach, right? Most of my content is like, how do we as indie podcasters try to do our craft better, get our shows, more listeners, etc.? If you can teach the best is something I want to say. Yes, almost every time. Like that's. [00:28:12][33.7]
[00:28:13] LAUREN PASSELL: That's my. [00:28:14][0.4]
[00:28:14] COURTNEY KOCAK: Whole thing. Almost no one does that. I have explicitly said it a few times. You will do that with your people sometimes, but almost no one and not even indie folks where I'm like, This is so ripe. Tell me how you did something well, and I will for sure feature you. It's very interesting. [00:28:31][17.4]
[00:28:32] LAUREN PASSELL: So what do you have on your website? Something like Only pitch me if you have, I should put. [00:28:37][5.1]
[00:28:37] COURTNEY KOCAK: That's what I'm saying. I'm not helping people out here. [00:28:39][2.1]
[00:28:40] LAUREN PASSELL: I'm not either. [00:28:40][0.4]
[00:28:41] COURTNEY KOCAK: But I do think the following them for a couple of weeks and being like, what do they do is a good substitute for just being like, does this fit into the content Like that James would publish or Lauren would publish or I would publish. And if you're pitching them something that you could totally see in, they're like, you're more likely to get it. Yes. [00:29:02][21.2]
[00:29:03] LAUREN PASSELL: I also have a goal, like we made goals for this year and my goal is to get down to zero pitches. And what I mean by that is I never want to write a pitch again. I don't want to feel like a pitch. I want to be a note or a letter. Like a pitch is something that looks formal. Yeah. And usually like if I'm emailing you Courtney, I'm emailing you because I know you and I'm asking how you are and I'm telling you something and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I have this client. I actually think that they talk about this thing that you'd be interested in. That's not, to me, a pitch letter. That is a relationship that I have. So I think I don't know if I'll get to zero this year because I'm constantly meeting new people and learning things. But like every year, closer and closer to zero pitches. Yes. [00:29:48][45.4]
[00:29:49] COURTNEY KOCAK: That Lauren is because we're podcast friends like we were talking about earlier. We've already like developed that relationship and there's like a cohesive knowledge of what the other person. Is looking for and respect of that. And yeah, it's like a genuine friendship, but also allows us to, you know, whatever do our jobs. [00:30:09][20.4]
[00:30:10] LAUREN PASSELL: Right. But I do want to be your best podcast bestie. I mean, I work on it. I'm that's my goal. That is my other goal zero pitches and to become Courtney's best podcast bestie, because I'm sure you ranked them all right. Yeah. Yes. At the top of the list. Yeah. Thank God. [00:30:25][15.1]
[00:30:27] COURTNEY KOCAK: Hey, besties. I got a review on Apple Podcasts and it made my day, so I want to share it with you. It says Super fun and informative. I love this new podcast. Kourtney is so fun and engaging and as a new podcast host, I find the interviews inspiring. I love that Courtney has edited the podcasts in such a way that pauses for her to explain something. A guest said that a wider audience may not know what it is. Such an additional pro move. I also love that Courtney's right personality shines through. She really does feel like your bestie and that she wants you to succeed as a podcaster. Thank you and excited for what this is to become. Nicole from the Multitudes podcast of Amazing Review. Thank you so much. So I just want to tell you a little bit about Nicole's podcast since she left such a nice review. Whether you're interested in thinking beyond a binary spirituality, health, creativity, well-being, changing careers, social justice, or leading a life beyond what you traditionally thought was possible, you'll find conversations on multitudes that can add another layer to your life and be a mirror to reflect a new reality you want to create. Here, you'll find conversations with guests on what they're passionate about, their stories, what motivates them, their perspective on wide ranging topics, their multi dimensionality, and how they contain multitudes. I love that. That is such a great mission. And I just have to say, I do want you guys to succeed. That is like the mission of this podcast and I will happily give you a shout out, just like I gave Nicole from the Multitudes podcast. And all you have to do is leave a rating, a review on Apple Podcasts, and then just email me a screenshot. Or you can just leave your name and the name of your podcast within the review and I will just shout you out. No extra moves required on your part. Let's talk about a couple of these other things that can maybe give besties some ideas about how to collab. Any interesting case studies for promo swaps or feed swaps or how that can be done in a artful way? [00:32:38][130.2]
[00:32:38] LAUREN PASSELL: Yes, I have a success story about a fiction show that I think could be used for nonfiction, but it was an indie show and they wanted it. You know, they had very high hopes of getting it acquired and being turned into a television show, and the show had ended. This was a problem. I don't know why we agreed to do it. It was over. They had hired really expensive voice actors, so we couldn't have them do interviews. There was nothing. We our hands were tied. We couldn't do promos because there were no more episodes. I actually don't know what we were thinking, but I'm so glad we said yes, because what we ended up doing was we got someone in the fiction audio universe, an expert, to come and interview the producer of the show for a bonus episode. So the bonus episode was great. On that bonus episode, we put two promos, we did two promo swaps, and we did feed swaps on either side because you don't want to have too many feed swaps. You can't have them in a row and you don't want too many promos. But one of the feed swaps, I learned something because, okay, when you do a promo swap, which is, you know, that's when for podcast bestie, I say, Hey, if you're listening to this show, you might also like podcast bestie and vice versa. They're usually 30 seconds long. That's an ad, right? And so people like to go number four. Number four, there's a feed swap is different. That's when you put an entire episode of something into another feed and vice versa. Now, that's not an ad. That's an amazing piece of content. You're going to send them your most amazing piece of content. And we were fortunately working with a beautiful show. That was why we worked with it. You know, I said, Why did we do this? It was a great show. It's called City of Ghosts. [00:34:20][101.5]
[00:34:21] COURTNEY KOCAK: I know that show. I love that show. [00:34:22][1.3]
[00:34:22] LAUREN PASSELL: Yes. Thank you. And so we went to some shows that were much bigger than City of Ghosts and said, Do you want to do a feed swap? We found someone ten times bigger who was like, Wow, this is a great show. He's a great guy. He put it on his feet. The show's numbers skyrocketed. I can basically it was featured also in a few places. It had amazing cover art, which is, I can guarantee one of the reasons it got featured. But that feed swap really changed the game and they got acquired by RAM. And I really think that that's why. And the other thing you can do with feed swaps is like pretend that I was a lot smaller than Podcast Bestie And I mean I do have a podcast kind of I have a tiny podcast called Feed the Queue. [00:35:04][41.9]
[00:35:05] COURTNEY KOCAK: Yeah, No, we're going to I think we'll do a swap on this episode. [00:35:07][2.3]
[00:35:08] LAUREN PASSELL: Oh, that's right. That's right. You're going to hear about Feed the Queue. But if I wanted to do a feed swap with let's say you're wrong about which would never ever happen. So that's why we can use this example. [00:35:19][11.4]
[00:35:20] COURTNEY KOCAK: Let's manifested the. [00:35:21][0.9]
[00:35:22] LAUREN PASSELL: I could say, to show much bigger than mine. I will put an episode of your show into my feed and I'll leave it there. And all I ask is for a small promo swap, and this is where the negotiating comes in. Those are two different things. They're worth two different things. It's very valuable to have an episode in there. I don't want to say forever because who knows right or wrong will be on this planet, but I'm just saying that you leave it in there, or if it was a show just a little bit bigger than mine, I could say, you know, let's do a feed swap. You can take yourself out after 60 days and I'll leave mine in. Or, you know, you mess with the days. If that other person wants a clean feed, offer to take it out. The thing is, they'll lose the downloads. You know, sometimes I work with clients who I set up a feed swap with them and they get tons of downloads on the feed swap, too. So the other one more tip about this, I'm sure you notice in the holidays, it's like rerun, rerun, rerun on all of the shows. That's valuable space. If you know there's a holiday in August, the dog days of summer, you know, the end of the year, you could email people in advance and say, Are you taking time off? I hope you are. I hope all these podcasters are taking a break, a well-deserved break. You know, Do you want to warm the feed with this wonderful episode that I picked out for you? Not just anyone. I think this one would be really nice on your feed. Do you want it and see what they say? [00:36:44][81.5]
[00:36:44] COURTNEY KOCAK: Yeah. And you know, you have an opportunity to make these feed swaps more art by the intro in the outro that you do. You know, I did one with Holly Randall unfiltered recently, but I listened to, you know, more of her show and like, felt like I could really talk about it. And her show is bigger than mine. I definitely saw a bump, but I feel like I did enough work on my end to like, make sure that my audience was going to be like, Oh yeah, these are the reasons I would listen to this show and this is why it would appeal to me. And I like sold them on that so that it was effective, even though my audience isn't quite as big as hers. [00:37:22][37.9]
[00:37:23] LAUREN PASSELL: Yeah, and I always, when I tell people about feed swaps, they worry that their fans are going to get mad. And I think the answer is absolutely not. If you do it the way that you described, but you will see people just throwing in other episodes from other shows with no explanation. It'll they'll feel tricked. You know, I'm every podcaster knows that vulnerability and transparency is so important. Just explain what's going on and they trust you. Your listeners trust you. So let them continue to trust you. [00:37:55][31.7]
[00:37:57] COURTNEY KOCAK: Hey, besties if you didn't know Podcast Bestie is a newsletter on Substack. In addition to being this amazing podcast and there is actually a paid tier for the newsletter and on the paid tier, I actually recently sent out a script template that you can steal for your own feed swaps. It's based on two recent feed swaps that I have done. So if you want to steal that for yourself, I am offering 20% off annual plans. You just have to go to podcast bestie Dot Substack WSJ.com slash the drop. I'm also going to put a link in the episode description and that will take you right to the discount landing page and you can get 20% off an annual subscription. What about paid advertising? Real quick before we go. Give me your top recs Castbox period. Period. End of story. [00:38:50][52.6]
[00:38:50] LAUREN PASSELL: I mean, not period, end of story. But like that, one ranks high. They're the only ones that give a guarantee. [00:38:55][5.0]
[00:38:56] COURTNEY KOCAK: It's kind of expensive to start, though, right? [00:38:58][1.8]
[00:38:59] LAUREN PASSELL: That's the thing. It's like $2,000. But people are very happy with Castbox. In fact, I've been telling so many people about Castbox. Castbox asked me to stop sending people there. You're welcome. Okay. I think that overcast is also a little expensive, but that's one's always fun to me because you can choose different categories. The prices are different for different categories you get, you can get a little creative. I think mobile is really creative. I know that you've experimented with that, but if you don't have that much money, go to the newsletters and ask them if they have a record. If they don't, they will make one up really fast. If you have like $50. Honestly, I think that that you can spend a tiny amount of money on these newsletters and. [00:39:45][46.4]
[00:39:45] COURTNEY KOCAK: They will they will remember that. And I find that I am so tickled that someone is wanting to support me, but I want to support them like five times as much as whatever I promised that I would give them. [00:39:59][14.1]
[00:40:00] LAUREN PASSELL: And to donate. Don't spend money on social media and don't spend money on Spotify. [00:40:03][3.2]
[00:40:05] COURTNEY KOCAK: Yes, that's very smart. Okay, so you inspired this question, Lauren. I'm asking people to audit me and you suggested that I do a recurring question. And so that's where this came from. I have three podcasts. I think you know them all. I have private parts unknown, The bleeders. You're on podcast, Bestie. So just any advice looking in that you would say I should start doing stop doing do more of? [00:40:35][30.0]
[00:40:35] LAUREN PASSELL: Well, I must say this is a hard question because you are so smart and you do. I love listening to podcasts, bestie, because I'm always like, How is she going to surprise us this time with marketing? Seriously, you are one of the best podcast marketers I know. Oh, stop. I'm not saying I'm not just saying that. Come to think we are really good at it. But I do have some ideas that I think, yeah, you can help. See, I'm not going to have to be the one to do it, but I would love to hear you talking to someone struggling. Most people interview people who are really successful or have already gotten over the hump. Mm hmm. I wonder if there's a way to learn from the people that are struggling. I don't know what this is, but I just feel like so many times when I listen to interviews about with podcasters, it's like, Oh, well, they had an enormous social media when they started. Or it's like, How did they do it? Oh, and then you realize that they had a lot of money or, you know, something. It's like, what about someone who is so normal and maybe it's not even their tips. Maybe it is a conversation about someone going through the middle, the messy middle, you know, really hearing what their struggles are. That's one idea. [00:41:45][70.1]
[00:41:46] COURTNEY KOCAK: I love that. I could audit them. [00:41:47][1.4]
[00:41:48] LAUREN PASSELL: Yes. Oh, yes. [00:41:50][2.2]
[00:41:51] COURTNEY KOCAK: Brilliant. What else you got for me? [00:41:53][1.8]
[00:41:53] LAUREN PASSELL: Well, I've always wanted someone to do this, but once again, I don't have to be the one to do it. So maybe you can't. But I would love to see someone get really creative with dynamic ad insertion, where you take them on a journey where, like, okay, just they just listen to this episode, which they probably want to listen to next, or what should I drive them to next? So not using dynamic ad insertion for ads, but to lead them on a journey of the podcast in some way and you can mix it up? I don't know. I think it might make sense for your show. [00:42:27][33.4]
[00:42:27] COURTNEY KOCAK: I think that's a really good tip. You know, I try to do that a little, not dynamically, but on private parts unknown. You know, I have a huge back catalog at this point, so I try to be like, oh, I interviewed this 80 something couple about gray Love. Well, a year and a half ago, we did an interview with the 70 somethings who were taking ecstasy together and like the episodes had a very similar vibe. And so I will throw them back to something where I'm. If you love this, if you made it to the end of this, let me give you another recommendation that I think you will also love. [00:43:02][34.5]
[00:43:02] LAUREN PASSELL: You're smart. Not enough people do that. I also think you could do like private parts unknown dot com slash start here or whatever. Start here and then on the show. Just say go to start here and have your favorite episodes up there. Put them in categories or make playlists or something like that. Because when you have a big back catalog, people don't know where to start. Also, I was talking to a client recently who had the best year last year, 2022, and I didn't even realize she had reused 80% of her content. So I also think podcasters, and maybe with private parts unknown, like, you know, when you're getting new listeners, when you're marketing, right, they haven't listened to your old stuff. It's really good stuff. So I often hear that podcasters are on this hamster wheel and I'm like, It's okay to take a breath, take time off, reuse something, make something you already have. Leave breathing room for a feed swap. You don't have to be putting out an episode every single week, even if you're running ads. I love that. Okay. [00:43:58][55.3]
[00:43:59] COURTNEY KOCAK: Anything else you want to share with the Besties before we wrap? [00:44:01][2.5]
[00:44:03] LAUREN PASSELL: I have one tip for anyone that's getting married. Can I share it? Yes, please. Okay. This is my only wedding tip. I'm from western Pennsylvania, and they do this thing that's kind of trashy. And I'm from northeast Ohio, but I grew up in P.A., and I thought everyone did it. And I found out as I grew older that no one does it. And it's called a dollar dance. Do you know what that is? I don't think so. Okay. So during a song, the bride gets up and people come up to dance with her and they stick money in her dress and you get to dance with her for like 20 seconds or something. And I know it sounds like really stupid and sexist. I made my husband do it, too, and we made $400. And I remember every single person I danced with. And your wedding is like a day that you don't even have time to eat that expensive food that you bought. You don't have time to see half your friends. I remember everyone that came up to me with a dollar and then all night I had dollar bills out of my dress. My husband had dollars all over him. But then when we took off our clothes at the end of the night, there was money spurting out everywhere. It was just a really, really funny, memorable thing that I highly recommend you do. That has nothing to do with podcasting. I don't know if that's what you meant, but there you go. [00:45:21][77.9]
[00:45:21] COURTNEY KOCAK: I love that someday I am going to get cash in on this ring and actually get married. [00:45:26][4.5]
[00:45:27] LAUREN PASSELL: And I'm going to do. [00:45:28][0.6]
[00:45:28] COURTNEY KOCAK: The dollar dance. It definitely appeals to me. It's like your wedding night and like your stripper fantasy all in one. [00:45:33][5.8]
[00:45:34] LAUREN PASSELL: Yes, exactly. Exactly. [00:45:36][1.7]
[00:45:38] COURTNEY KOCAK: Thank you, Lauren, for just being a pleasure to chat with and sharing such amazing information that is going to help us all take our podcast marketing to the next level. I just feel refreshed. I feel like podcast marketing is fun again and I hope you feel the same way too. And thank you for tuning in to podcast Bestie, Bestie and you probably already know this because you are a listener yourself, but the podcast bestie audience is amazing. It is a bunch of ferocious independent podcasters, industry folks, podcast addicts, truly just the best group of people. And you can reach this audience and you can support me and the show at the same time by buying advertising on this show. And it's super easy to do so by going to podcast bestie dot com slash advertise. I have classifieds starting for $30, $30 and you reach the podcast, which is reaching thousands per episode, plus the newsletter where you're reaching over 3000 people. So you're reaching like 6000 people minimum for $30. And again, this is a very niche audience of podcast lovers. So take advantage of me besties, go to podcast bestie dot com slash advertise to buy a sponsorship and help support the show. Check out my other podcast Private Parts Unknown, which is about love and sexuality around the world and the bleeders about book writing and publishing. For more of my audio creations, and if you want to take your own audio creations to the next level, I'm teaching a one day podcasting intensive all about how to grow and monetize your show through Pandemic University. This is going to be a three hour deep dive into the business side of podcasting to help you, say, launch a new show or season, grow your audience, monetize your show via various methods and or take your skills. Pro This is happening Saturday, May 13th, and it will be recorded. If you can't make it live, it's super affordable. Plus there's an option where you can get feedback and a one on one with me If you should want that, check out the link in the description to sign up. You can also follow me between episodes eight. Courtney Kozak that is K, OCR, K on Instagram and Twitter, and I sent out lots of newsletter exclusives to my besties. So of course, make sure you're signed up for Podcast Bestie, the newsletter on Substack that is podcast bestie dot substack icon slash welcome. Until next time have you podcasting diversity besties. Love podcasts have trouble finding the best of the best to feed your listening queue on feed the queue. Adella Mizrachi, the founder of Podcast Brunch Club, and Lauren Purcell of Tink Media and podcast. The newsletter. Ever heard of her? Oh, yeah, you have. You just spent like 45 minutes listening to her. They share the best episodes they can find in full. You get a taste and you can dive into what piques your curiosity. There is no publication scheduled for Feed the Queue. They drop episodes whenever they feel like it, feeding your queue only when the moment is right. They have no idea when this will happen. So it's a total surprise for you. And sometimes even them discover shows like Alabama astronaut Skyline Drive, meddling adults in the seasons behind Plain Sight and more. Find feed the queue wherever you get your podcast, and I have to give my personal recommendation. Besties. This is a great way for you to study craft. Lauren and Adela. They know how to pick good shows and you are going to learn about how to make great podcasts just by listening to the preview of these shows that they have on their podcast. And then you can do a deeper dive if you love a particular style, but really feed the Q is not billed as such, but it is a lesson in craft for independent podcasters, so I highly recommend you check it out. Oh. [00:45:38]