The Art of the Podcast Trailer with Arielle Nissenblatt

Podcast Bestie, the Podcast

Episode 12 Show Notes

Guest: Arielle Nissenblatt, founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective and the head of community and content at Squadcast.fm

Host: Courtney Kocak, Podcast Bestie founder

Hey Besties! It’s summer — we’re all busy working, traveling, and having fun — so I’m taking my sweet time rolling out the rest of this season… but today’s episode is so worth the wait. I have Big Podcasting’s Bestie and all our Besties, Arielle Nissenblatt, on the show today. Arielle is the founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective and the head of community and content at Squadcast.fm. In this episode, she’s sharing podcast marketing examples from the launch of her new show — Trailer Park, The Podcast Trailer Podcast — plus her recipe for a good podcast trailer, social media tips, how to co-market effectively, her advice on getting featured in the apps, and so much more.

Watch the video version of Arielle’s interview on YouTube.

If you missed the last episode, check out How to Grow Your Podcast: A Podcast Marketing Master Class with Jeff Umbro of The Podglomerate.

Thanks to Michael Castañeda for mixing and mastering this episode. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram @plasticaudio.

And thank you to Matt Gilhooly for fine-tuning the video and creating the social media assets for this episode. Follow him on Twitter @theliftshiftpod.

A big thanks to our BFFs for sponsoring this episode:

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  • Being successful with podcasts and video is a full-time that most people don’t have the time or experience to do. Momento is an end-to-end AI video marketing tool that finds your shareable moments, creates beautiful shorts, and even schedules straight to social. Can it do more? Yes! Momento can write high-quality show notes, social posts, tweets, and even jokes from your content. Your first upload is FREE, go see what AI can do with your video!

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I’ve also got a FREE promo opportunity for the Besties: Leave a five-star rating with a review on Apple Podcasts, email me a screenshot with your name and the name of your podcast, and you’ll get a free shout-out on the next episode.

Thank you to the following Besties for their reviews:

  • Maria of Pure Cringe - We are Maria and Michelle—two old friends, book lovers, and BravoTV super fans! Join the fun as we review Bravolebrity books and recap classic BravoTV Episodes!

  • Nicolle Galteland of LOOTERS - LOOTERS is an actual play, sci-fi western, Table Top RPG using the Stars Without Numbers gaming system.

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TRANSCRIPT (This is a rough AI-generated transcript for immediate accessibility, please excuse any mistakes.)

[00:00:03] Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Arielle Nissenblatt. I am the founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective, the head of community and content at Squad Cast FM, and I'm the host of a podcast called Trailer Park. The Podcast, Trailer Podcast, and I'm a Bestie. [00:00:15]

[00:00:16] Speaker 2: Hey, podcast besties. Welcome back to the show dedicated to making your podcast the best it can be. I'm Courtney Koh. Zach, your B of F in helping you grow and monetize your show. Alison Besties. I get it. It's summer. I know we're all busy working and traveling and having fun, so that is why I have been taking my sweet time rolling out the rest of this season. But today's episode is so worth the wait. And I know you're going to agree with me because I have big podcasting bestie and really all of our besties, Ariel Ness and Blatt on the show today. Ariel is the founder of Earbuds Podcast Collective and the head of community and content at Squad Guest FM. You've probably seen her around Twitter. And in this episode she's sharing podcast marketing examples from the launch of her new show Trailer Park. The podcast, trailer podcast, plus her recipe for a good podcast trailer Social Media Tips how to co market effectively her advice for getting featured in the apps and so much more. Okay, here we go. Okay, amazing. So excited to have this convo. So let's get your podcasting origin story. I feel like I knew you at the very beginning of your podcasting origin story. [00:01:36][80.4]

[00:01:37] Speaker 1: We've known each other forever in podcast years. [00:01:39][1.7]

[00:01:39] Speaker 2: I know. That's pretty cool. Yeah. [00:01:41][1.9]

[00:01:43] Speaker 1: My podcast origin story is that I really wanted to work in podcasting on the production side of things, but I had no idea how to go about doing that because I did not have a background in it and I wanted to find any way in possible. So it was like 2016. I just moved to Los Angeles. I was trying to intern anywhere that would take me, trying to apprentice, anywhere that would take me, trying to just have coffee with anybody who would take me. And I was definitely having coffee with people. I was definitely applying to a lot of jobs, but I was not getting any jobs in editing or production or post-production or anything like that because I had no experience. And it turns out it's really hard to get experience when you don't already have experience. And I didn't have a background in journalism, but. [00:02:26][43.1]

[00:02:26] Speaker 2: Your strategy was good. [00:02:27][1.0]

[00:02:27] Speaker 1: The coffee. The coffee strategy. [00:02:28][0.9]

[00:02:29] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, look at you today. Don't you think that that's entirely the result of your coffee strategy? [00:02:35][6.1]

[00:02:36] Speaker 1: Totally. It's a coffee strategy, and it's the strategy of make up your own thing and make people have to talk to you. So all of this led to me saying, okay, let me try to work on the business side. Right? If I can't work on the production creative side, let me see what the business side is like. So I started Earbuds, the podcast recommendation newsletter as a way to number one, listen to more podcasts. Number two, have podcast lists curated for me and for other people. And number three, because it let me have a thing that people would need to talk to me about. So newsletters, podcasts, any digital types of creation, they thrive when they are being collaborated with, and you thrive when you are collaborating with others, right? So earbuds the newsletter later earbuds. The podcast that goes along with the newsletter are all things that allow me to reach out to people and say, Hey, let's leverage these things and work together. [00:03:23][47.5]

[00:03:24] Speaker 2: So how long after you started earbuds were you able to like because you worked at Castbox and then squad cast? How long until you wound up getting your dream, which was to work in podcasting? [00:03:37][12.8]

[00:03:38] Speaker 1: Yeah. So I started earbuds in February of 2017, and in November of 2017, I started managing a co-working space as podcast studio in Los Angeles. [00:03:49][11.1]

[00:03:49] Speaker 2: I remember. [00:03:50][0.2]

[00:03:51] Speaker 1: Did you ever go there? [00:03:51][0.5]

[00:03:52] Speaker 2: I one time, I think, yeah, yeah. [00:03:53][1.2]

[00:03:53] Speaker 1: It's pretty space. So they earlier that year I pitched a bunch of different co-working spaces and was like, you should have podcast related things going on. And then this place was like, Yeah, sure, come do it. And I was like, Okay, let's see what that means. So I did that for about a year and a half, and while I did that, I hosted networking events and kept getting coffee with people. And yes, I was working in the podcast space, but it wasn't fully in the podcast space. I was also doing work for the co-working space, like giving people tours and all that kind of stuff. And then just also managing the podcast studio bookings and things like that. [00:04:27][34.3]

[00:04:28] Speaker 2: So it wasn't quite the dream. [00:04:29][1.1]

[00:04:29] Speaker 1: It wasn't quite the dream. [00:04:30][0.7]

[00:04:30] Speaker 2: It was close, Yeah, it was close. [00:04:31][0.9]

[00:04:31] Speaker 1: We were getting there. And then in 2019, well, what's interesting is my newsletter made people reach out to me, made people say, Hey, can I curate a list? Hey, can I advertise in your newsletter? Hey, can you do me a solid and put this piece of news in my newsletter? And over time, I started building relationships and strong relationships, and Castbox had advertised a few times in my newsletter. And then in 2018 at Podcast Movement in Philadelphia, I got to have a sit down meeting with the CEO of Castbox and they were just asking for my feedback as a listener, you know, somebody who used the podcast. Listening app of Castbox. And because of that, they now knew my face and continued to pay for ads. And then about seven months later they needed to fill a position and they thought me amazing. So it all goes back to this newsletter. It all goes back to making a thing for myself, making people need to talk to me. Yeah. So then I worked for them for about a year until August of 2020, and then I started working for squad cars and I've been there ever since. Yeah. [00:05:29][57.3]

[00:05:30] Speaker 2: Okay, so but your latest project is this Trailer Park podcast. So tell us about that and then also what you've learned about the art of the podcast trailer while working on this. [00:05:41][11.2]

[00:05:42] Speaker 1: I love trailers. I really do. I love any teaser that gets people excited about potentially finding a new thing to listen to. And there's a few origin stories for Trailer Park, the podcast, trailer podcast. The first is that I love experimenting with different types of Twitter and LinkedIn engagement strategies, and one of the ones that I came up with was here's a thread on Twitter of every day for the month of June of 2022. So this was last year. Let me listen to one of the trailers that is being currently posted on New and Noteworthy on Apple Podcasts. And then let me write a little bit about it. Was it effective? Was it entertaining? Am I going to listen to it? Am I going to go into listening to the rest of the show? So I did that for a month and I just found it to be a really interesting way to be exposed to new shows, some that I would never touch again, others that I definitely wouldn't touch again and maybe I wouldn't have if I hadn't set myself out to do this thing. And then I went on a road trip with my friend and she's been a podcast listener. She actually edits the Earbuds newsletter, Shout out to Abby. She's been doing it for six years and she's just the best editor in the land. She has been a podcast listener but is definitely not a regular podcast listener because she doesn't have a commute and she's like gone in waves, but she's definitely an NPR girl. Like she grew up listening to the radio, so she gets good. Yeah, she understands audio as entertainment. So we were in the car and we were listening to trailers, and what what I found is that we were listening to trailers for shows that I had already listened to, and I was trying to turn her on to them. And what I found was that the trailers didn't often match the tone, texture, content of the show. They sort of get very, very cinematic in a, you know, here's what's going to happen in this show. And here's a clip and here's another clip and here's a clip from somebody with a different style voice. Get ready on June 19, that's when the show drops. And so I found that to be fascinating because I had only known that because I had then gone on to listen to the full shows or I had listened to the full shows already, and when I was showing these to Abby, I'd be like, That's actually really what the show is about. I do think you'd like it. So that got me really curious. [00:07:46][123.9]

[00:07:47] Speaker 2: Oh, besties. This is so true. So I just want to take a second to underline this. When I teach my multi-week podcasting course, we always do some trailer listening together, and I have had exactly the same experience as Arielle. Like every time. Typically my students are unfamiliar with the podcast, and then after I play them the trailer, I ask if they know what the show is about based on the trailer. And even with the best of shows like produced by the This American Life Team, a lot of times the trailer is not a good representation of the show that it's trying to get people to listen to and confusing potential listeners is not a great strategy for getting them to listen to your show. So anyway, this is such a helpful exercise for you to do with your trailer. Play it for a friend or a family member or a total stranger who is unfamiliar with your premise and ask them what they get from the trailer. Like, yes, you want to pique their interest. That's part of it. But also, maybe more importantly, you want them to be able to clearly articulate the premise and the value proposition of your show. Okay, Back to Ariel. [00:08:58][71.0]

[00:08:59] Speaker 1: So then I started tweeting a different tactic, posting on LinkedIn as well. What if there was a show dedicated entirely to podcast trailers, whether those trailers exist and are part of larger bodies of work or were made for fun or were made as a joke, or were made to potentially gain some funding, but didn't actually gain that funding? And I kind of let that tweet sit there. And then I came back to it every few months when I had new developments with this project. So, for example, when I found a co-host, Tim Vargas, or when I found out what my cover art would be or what I found out what the music would sound like, the sonic identity of the show, who the guests would be, here's the submission form, here's the website I was really building in public when it came to getting the show off the ground. [00:09:38][39.0]

[00:09:41] Speaker 2: Hey besties. I partnered with Mo Pod as the Season one sponsor of this show and it has helped me reach so many new listeners, maybe even you Podcast Bestie is almost a 50,000 downloads. That is five times my season one goal and Robot has definitely given me a boost in that department mobile. Is an effective, targeted way to promote your show. It's already trusted by industry giants like Condé Nast, iHeart Media and the HubSpot Podcast Network. And that's because it works. But Mopar isn't just for the big guys. Mopar Boost is perfect for any podcasters like me and you. And guess what? Mopar Boost is now even Booster because Mopar has supercharged its self-serve platform with an AI powered ad copy and precision targeting. So that means it now has the ability to generate impactful ad copy using AI and the implementation of sophisticated targeting options such as geolocation, age, gender and household income. And you can try it for just $100. Plus, if you're a bestie, you get 10% off with the link in the description. So try it out and let me know what you think. Okay. Now back to Ariel and we're going to get back to podcast trailers in a second. But first, I think we all need a social media lesson from the Twitter queen herself. Let's talk about trailers. But well, first, I want to talk about your Twitter and LinkedIn, because you I see you do this a lot. And like, it's a whole different way of, you know, I have not been able to embrace those platforms for themselves, you know, for like they're a little bit of an art to themselves and figuring out how to make them work. What's your strategy for those? And like, how do you test different things? And I'm not even smart enough about the platforms to ask it the proper question. [00:11:40][119.6]

[00:11:42] Speaker 1: It's a good question. I don't think I'm intentionally doing anything. I just I go in with the thought of how can what I post be helpful for me? [00:11:53][10.6]

[00:11:53] Speaker 2: I've never in my life been like, let me go back to that tweet from two months ago. Like, I'm not interesting. [00:11:59][6.2]

[00:12:00] Speaker 1: Interesting. [00:12:00][0.0]

[00:12:00] Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Even that. [00:12:01][1.0]

[00:12:02] Speaker 1: That's like talking about that. Yeah. Okay. [00:12:05][2.5]

[00:12:05] Speaker 2: So like, do you think of it as a content? Like, do you think of that? Like, I'm just like, I'm, I'm here promoting my shit. Which Yes. [00:12:12][7.1]

[00:12:13] Speaker 1: Promoting my shit and promoting the shit of the podcast industry. I think that's how I look at it, is if there was a such thing as big podcasting, how can I be big podcasting best friend? How can I be big? Podcasting is best. [00:12:22][9.7]

[00:12:22] Speaker 2: Way. [00:12:22][0.0]

[00:12:24] Speaker 1: So yeah, I do think about myself, sure. But I like to have a general rule that it's not written anywhere and that I don't necessarily stick to every single day, every single month. But for everything that I post about myself, I try to post something positive to other people or about other people. And I think what that does is it forces me to get out of my own head. And it also comes back to you. You know, it really does. If people see you as being helpful, they want to help you. [00:12:48][24.0]

[00:12:49] Speaker 2: Yes. And are you planning your content there in advance or are you just is it all off the fly. [00:12:54][5.5]

[00:12:55] Speaker 1: By the seat of my pants? [00:12:55][0.6]

[00:12:56] Speaker 2: Okay. But you are like, you do have your finger on the pulse. So you are seeing like different trends and stuff. And that's your strategy for like, how can I do my own riff on this and test engagement? Right. [00:13:09][12.7]

[00:13:09] Speaker 1: Yes, I will definitely see a tweet or a LinkedIn post go viral in another sort of subset of creator communities. And I'll be like, How can I relate this to podcasting? Here's a meme format that's going viral. How does that relate to podcasting? And usually those things do pretty well. But another thing is, like the other day I tweeted something about James Cridland podcast events, which is a you can go to podcast events and if you have any events, whether they're in-person or virtual, you can post that event and it'll be listed on his website. So you get a nice back link. But he also might even posted in his newsletter and that's great. You know, that's free press for you. So the other day I posted about that, not because he had updated the page, not because it was in the case in any way, but because I was like, you know what? I don't know if everybody knows about this and it is free PR and people should know about that. So I'm not thinking once a week like, Hey, let me share a resource. But it does end up shaking out to once a week. I share a resource. Once a week I do an engagement read. Yes, where people are, people get to show off something that they're working on once a week. I try to do like a funny tweet that relates to podcasting and pop culture. Once a week I try to share a podcast recommendation, but I'm not thinking about anything. I'm not saying like, Oh, I didn't post my podcast recommendation this week. [00:14:15][65.8]

[00:14:16] Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So from doing this trailer park show, what have you learned about what is a good trailer? What's the recipe? [00:14:25][9.1]

[00:14:25] Speaker 1: The first step is having one. So many people don't have trailers or don't think to prioritize it. And I think the reason you should have a trailer is because that trailer should drop a few weeks before your show drops. And that podcast bestie did this very well and work on getting people to the landing page, for lack of a better term of your podcast in their favorite podcast listening app so that they can hit followers, subscribe so that when you do drop your first episode, people are followed or subscribed to it and they'll get a notification or they'll otherwise see it somewhere. So the first step is making something. What I did for Trailer Park is I made a pre trailer, which was 34 seconds long. I literally said I was very transparent. I said, this is a placeholder. I am putting this here so that my feet can be alive. That's it. Here's a little bit of music. Here's a little taste of who I am. My name is Arielle. You can find out more about me and this podcast. Trailer Park Dot Trailer Park Podcast Otchere-darko. You can go there. [00:15:18][52.2]

[00:15:18] Speaker 2: You had three teasers, trailers, teasers. Very smart strategy laid out for everybody. [00:15:23][4.7]

[00:15:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, I like I love being very transparent. So we had pre trailer, then we had a trailer and then we have what we call the teaser. So pre trailer with 34 seconds trailer was about a minute and a half and then the teaser was 3 minutes. [00:15:37][13.5]

[00:15:38] Speaker 2: And so how did you decide about like timing those out and what they included? You were just including a little bit more information each time. Yeah. [00:15:46][7.8]

[00:15:46] Speaker 1: So the pre trailer was really just, hey, this is coming soon. The trailer was here's what you can expect in the show and then when to expect it. And then the teaser was meet me and Tim a little bit. Here's a little bit more of our personalities and here's what you can expect. And, you know, maybe we're going to give away a little bit more so there's no real delineations between a teaser and a trailer. I think all my point was that I was playing around with the concept of Let's give something away so that people are interested, but let's not give too much away that we are boring people because we're giving we're giving away our secrets or we're telling you everything that's happening in season one. [00:16:24][38.0]

[00:16:25] Speaker 2: Yeah. And you you sort of have to create your own moment, right? And by having three trailers, you get to. [00:16:33][7.7]

[00:16:34] Speaker 1: Have. [00:16:34][0.0]

[00:16:35] Speaker 2: Three moments. [00:16:35][0.3]

[00:16:36] Speaker 1: That was my strategy is make news every single time a new trailer drops or new episode drops. And it's hard. And I think about this a lot because if you have an ongoing season, your first few episodes are very exciting for you and for other people. People are pumped, you know, it's it's new, It looks new. The cover art is novel. You're not used to seeing it. But then by the fifth episode or so, you're like, okay, you know, it's hard week to week to turn this thing out. I know you're going through it right now, and I'm still working as hard as I was on the first episode. But it's kind of sad because the novelty wears off for the people who are potentially listening and tuning in. [00:17:09][32.8]

[00:17:09] Speaker 2: Oh, yes. You know, but another thing that I want to share with the besties and talk to you about, because I've seen you doing this and I've been trying to do this a lot, too, is making a game out of the growth and or ratings and reviews. Like, I have gotten so many more ratings and reviews for private parts unknown since I started being like every episode, I'll be like, Hey guys, we're trying to get to 75 on Spotify and we're trying to get to 250 on Apple Podcasts or whatever, and then I'll announce where we are. And it's a game. [00:17:43][33.5]

[00:17:43] Speaker 1: People feel like they're in it. [00:17:44][0.8]

[00:17:45] Speaker 2: They feel like they're in it, and they are honestly helping versus like just a blanket. Can you give me a rating and review? And one thing that I saw that was very smart with you is you had your three trailers out or whatever, and you were like, Hey, trying to get to a thousand or something like that, you're like sharing your download goals and you're making your listeners feel like they're part of helping you reach that which they are. [00:18:08][23.0]

[00:18:08] Speaker 1: It works for this show. It works for trailer park, it works for Podcast Bestie, because it's a podcast about podcasts. Yeah, it doesn't work for every type of show. Not every show needs all that transparency, but if you have a podcast that's for creators, I think be transparent about what you're doing and is it working? [00:18:23][14.5]

[00:18:23] Speaker 2: And even periodically on other shows like The Bleeders, when I make a moment out of it and be like, Hey, I'm trying to now, I try to make a goal each time with with my people. [00:18:32][9.1]

[00:18:33] Speaker 1: I think it works because it's for creators. I think people are invested in what it takes to have your own thing and make that thing thrive. [00:18:39][6.0]

[00:18:40] Speaker 2: Yeah. Hey, besties. Just a quick break for a word from our sponsors, and I am so excited to tell you about Memento. Listen, being successful with podcasts and video is a full time job that most people don't have the time or experience to do. Right? It's a lot, but momentum makes it easy because Memento is an end to end. I video marketing tool that finds your most shareable moments and creates beautiful shorts and even schedules straight to social. Can it do more? Yes, Memento can write high quality show notes, social posts, tweets, and even jokes from your content. It seriously can do everything. I have been using it for all of my social clips and even YouTube shorts and it has quickly become my new favorite and you can try it to. Your first upload is free, so go see what I can do with your video. Give memento a try with the link in the description and also check out the links in the episode description to sign up for the Tilt and Morning Brew newsletters. But Tilt is a newsletter for professional content creators, and Morning Brew will help you become smarter in just 5 minutes. You need both in your inbox and if you want to reach the podcast bestie audience, you can buy a sponsorship to podcast bestie at podcast BestBuy.com slash advertise. Okay, now back to the show. Okay, so you're a podcast marketer. What was your strategy going into launching this new show? How did you set yourself up for success? [00:20:13][93.8]

[00:20:14] Speaker 1: If I had to boil it down to a sentence, I would say everything everywhere, all at once. I try to pop up in as many newsletters, podcasts, listening apps, other editorial places on other podcasts in around the same time to as much as I can control that. Some of those things are still rolling in, even though we finished season one. Right now, we're between seasons. Right now this interview is happening and it's going to hopefully drive some more people to check out Trailer Park. But we're between seasons. But those episodes are still very valuable. But around February of 2023, just a few months ago, when we dropped the real first episode of Trailer Park, we really tried to make sure that we were being featured in Pod News. We were being featured in Podcast Bestie, we were being featured in Earbuds. We were being featured in the Lauren Lauren Purcell Suite of Newsletters. We're being featured in Katy Laura's newsletter. We're being featured in Pod Stacker, but everywhere you can imagine, I tried to get at least a mention so that you couldn't possibly not see me, so that you see me so much that you're like, You know what? Maybe the show sucks, but I at least have to try it. [00:21:15][60.5]

[00:21:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Did you do any anything paid or. It was all organic. [00:21:21][6.0]

[00:21:22] Speaker 1: I did a mo pod boost just like you did to on one of our episodes. But we did it as a we did it as a partnership, too. I would then come to them and say what worked well, and we talked a little bit about it on the show and we're going to do a bonus episode, I believe, sometime down the line about that. [00:21:37][15.8]

[00:21:38] Speaker 2: Nice. I do want to recommend to two besties syncing up if you do something paid. You know, you were just mentioning trying to get all of your coverage in this condensed period of time. And same thing goes for you're paid to like you want to sync that up with your release date. You want to sync that up with as much other press as you have so that you know, if you're like trying to climb the charts or something, you can make the most out of that. [00:22:03][24.7]

[00:22:03] Speaker 1: And so that you can track it. So I think maybe what you try to do is go organic at first and then maybe towards the middle of your season when there's that mid-season slump, that's when you do some paid so that you can easily attribute that to paid rather than, Oh, is this because of my editorial pitches? [00:22:18][15.0]

[00:22:20] Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Yeah. Though, yeah. It depends what your goal is and it's a nice to do it a few episodes into because you have multiple episodes that people can listen to when they find your show, which is good. So one thing that I hear you talk about a lot is co-marketing. And I would love to have you explain what co-marketing is and some good examples and how people, indie podcasters especially, can set up successful co-marketing campaigns. [00:22:49][29.2]

[00:22:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, co-marketing is the thing that I have been doing without having a term for it for a really long time. But the term came to me when I was listening to an episode of the Sounds Profitable podcast. I want to say a year ago, maybe a little bit more, Brian Barletta was speaking to Steve Wilson, who is now at Q Code, but he used to work at Apple for a long time and he was talking about how one of his strategies at Q Code in order to launch shows is to create co-marketing campaigns with Apple. Apple wants people to listen on Apple, Spotify wants people to listen on Spotify, Castbox wants people to listen on Castbox I could go on all day Why? They need daily active users. They need monthly active users in order to prove to their shareholders that this is a worthwhile app or to, you know, if they are an ad based platform to have ad impressions, things like that. So in order to make people want to listen on these apps, they need to make sure that their home pages are enticing. And in order for that to be the case, they shouldn't look like every single other home page. Yes, of course, you're going to have some of the categories are top charts, top podcasts in this area, but others are going to be editorially curated. And how do they find out about these editorial podcasts that they could potentially feature? They need to be pitched some of the podcast Listening apps have forums where you can apply to be featured. Some you just got to be stealthy and find some email addresses and find some DMS and open up those DMS and hope for the best, Make a nice relationship and don't pitch right away. You know, don't shoot your shot too early, but making sure that you are co-marketing with these people. So a phrase that I really like is hi person at pocket casts. I would really love to find a way to promote pocket casts and then for you to promote my show. Why? Because I really love podcasts. I listen on podcasts. I want more people to listen on podcasts. And I already know that you have featured shows like mine in the past, so I'm curious if you'd consider featuring mine at this time. And what that does is it allows you to have a nice placement if you're accepted on their home page and then you can milked that for all it's worth. You can take a screenshot, you can talk about it, you can post it in your newsletter that you were featured. And then just, you know, the rule of thumb here is you don't want to be cheating on every platform, so you don't want to like go to Spotify at the same time that you go to Apple at the same time. You go to Spotify, Castbox, Stitcher. So choose one. Make an ask if they say yes. Awesome. Be loyal to them. If they say no or they don't answer, you try something else. And then, of course, you're going to see some podcasts that are featured on all of them all the time, all at once. And that's good for them, but it's not always going to happen. How can indie podcasters do this? Just the way that I did. I'm an indie podcaster. I did this. It took me a while to build up these relationships, but it's not because I'm special, it's because I took the time. I think Good Pods is a really great option. And another thing to consider is not all of these podcast listening apps being featured is not going to necessarily guarantee thousands and thousands of downloads, but it's all part of building buzz around your show. So getting featured on good pods, even though it might not drive so many new listeners to you, it's still great for you to be able to say, Check us out. We were featured on Good Pods and then you might even chart in good pods charts, and then you can post that you are charting in good pods, charts. All of these things are things that you can point back to and that you can eventually take screenshots of and put in your deck for your next season. [00:26:01][190.9]

[00:26:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So I was just talking to learn about this, but I sometimes feel like with those submissions I'll submit and I don't hear back and I feel like it's just going into the void. So then I just will get discouraged and I won't want to do it for it'll be like a year later and then I'll be like, Shit, I should do that again. So how do you create a successful like, how do you pitch them something that is going to be enticing if you're not like the biggest show. [00:26:31][29.9]

[00:26:32] Speaker 1: Find out who they are. Find out who are the people who are making this curation. So I'm not like going to out any of these people because that's not the game I'm playing. But they make themselves pretty obvious about who they are. Like if you go on LinkedIn and you search Apple in the search bar and you might have to do some sifting, but you can find out who puts in their bio that they work for Apple. And then they might even put in their bio that they work for editorial within Apple. But a lot of those people I'm not saying damn them, but I am saying that every once in a while they'll tweet, Hey, I am looking to curate a list on X, Y and z. What podcast do you know? Here's our forum. Recently, somebody posted that there's a new spotlight form you can now apply to have people spotlight on Apple Podcasts and look again. Just because you apply does not mean you are entitled to being featured. But how do you up your chances? I think the question to ask yourself is why should this be featured? Now? That's actually a question that Apple asks themselves. Spotify doesn't ask that exact question on their form, but they have some questions that I think just making sure you are being very clear as to why your podcast should be featured, Why now? Who is in this episode? Why is it special? Why is it different? And what are listeners going to take away from this episode? What does it fit into? Make it clear that you are aware of other shows that they have featured in the past and how your show not only fits into that but also breaks some old a little bit? Yeah, I understand being discouraged. I have applied hundreds of shows and only gotten a few approved as being featured. But you know what? That's not a terrible that's not a terrible percentage. And also, I can't expect them to just like see my name and be like, Oh, got to trust Ariel implicitly. They're running a ship, you know, they have to make sure that these shows are high quality. They have to make sure that they are adding something to the discussion and that they're not playing any favorites, too. [00:28:16][104.6]

[00:28:17] Speaker 2: So how often. [00:28:17][0.5]

[00:28:19] Speaker 1: Should you be pitching? [00:28:19][0.4]

[00:28:20] Speaker 2: Should you be pitching them? [00:28:21][0.9]

[00:28:22] Speaker 1: I don't think that there is a set amount of times that you should or shouldn't be pitching. I think when you have something that you feel is buzzy, great. And it could be that you feel that every single episode is buzzy. I would encourage you to look at that again. You know, when you've got something great on your hands, you know. [00:28:40][18.5]

[00:28:41] Speaker 2: What's the most that you would do? Like every other month? [00:28:43][2.2]

[00:28:43] Speaker 1: I would go every month. [00:28:44][1.0]

[00:28:45] Speaker 2: Oh, really? [00:28:45][0.2]

[00:28:45] Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it depends. Like I am often pitching on behalf of people who have shows launching. But for my own show, I actually don't pitch my own show that often because I'm kind of like the appeal. People know who I am. If they want to feature me, they can feature me. [00:28:57][11.2]

[00:28:57] Speaker 2: Right? [00:28:57][0.0]

[00:28:57] Speaker 1: And you know what? If they do, great. If they don't, I'm going to wait. My turn, basically, is if it happens, it happens. I actually have been featured on New and Noteworthy with one of my podcast Counterprogramming, and it was huge. Yes. But it brought good and bad. It brought us 18,000 downloads for the month of July that we were featured as opposed to regularly. We were getting like between 2004 thousand downloads. So it was huge. But it also brought us from a five star rating to a 3.6 because it exposes you to people who might not like you totally. I'm not saying that you should not seek feature just because of that, but I am saying there are some things that you should be aware of. [00:29:32][34.2]

[00:29:32] Speaker 2: That's exactly what happened with Reality bites when we got home. Page feature. Yeah, just people were mean about our voices and stuff, but, but that's what happens when you're reaching way more people, which I'll take it. Oh, right. So okay you see a lot of collabs, you see a lot of swaps, you see a lot of cross promos. Give me a cool out of the box example of how. Podcasters could collaborate and market their shows? [00:30:04][31.9]

[00:30:05] Speaker 1: Yes. I will give an example that Tim and I did for Trailer Park. So we set up a lot of interesting paid promos as well as non-paid promos. So we had a bunch of sponsors for season one. And one of the things that we did in order to make sponsorship with one of our sponsors, which was the VO caster from Focus, Right. More enticing to this sponsor was we not only did a giveaway on every single episode where if you filled out a form you could win a VO caster from Focus, right? So we gave away eight one for each episode of season one. But we are also going to be interviewing Dan Hughley of Focus, right? And we're going to be putting that episode out and hopefully that episode doesn't read a Spawn con but is actually just exciting. Here's why you might consider using an audio interface. So that's something that it's not a paid episode, but it is part of our larger offering for a paid sponsorship. So that's on the paid side. But I do want Bessie's to take away the idea that like you have more to offer than you think you do, even if you're only getting 100 downloads per episode, you can offer this bespoke episode. You can interview a potential sponsor and say This is part of the package when you sign on with us for season one. [00:31:24][78.5]

[00:31:24] Speaker 2: A nice branded episode is super valuable to someone if they know that it's going to sound good and you can make them a piece of content that is extremely valuable, they can send it to whoever they want. Yeah, it doesn't matter who your audiences look. [00:31:38][14.2]

[00:31:39] Speaker 1: How good we sound. Look how good I made us look. Another thing that we did with Trailer Park, the podcast trailer podcast that is non-paid is one of our episodes. We featured the trailer for a podcast called Serum from Wiley and Local Transmedia, and we liked it so much that we liked the trailer so much. And Tim, my co-host, went on to listen to the entire series, and a lot of people actually told me, Wow, I love this so much. I actually like went right from listening to this trailer to listening to the entire series. Three people have told me that, which is great. Cool. Tim reached out to Grant Hill, who was the reporter on that show and asked to interview him. And we're going to be dropping that interview in our feed. And you can bet that Grant is going to be very proud of that and will be posting about it on social. So that's just a collaboration that we wanted to do out of the goodness. I'm not going to say the goodness of our hearts out of the fact that we just love this, that we that we thought it was great. And that's not something that we planned for, but it is something that can come up and that you should feel free to explore because people are definitely interested in talking about their creative processes and you can take advantage of that. [00:32:46][67.2]

[00:32:46] Speaker 2: Yes. So, okay, you talked a little bit about paid advertising, but what would you say if busses have a limited budget and they were going to prioritize just a couple paid things? What are your top recs for things that they should look into? [00:33:04][17.2]

[00:33:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, I like Mo pod. I like Amaze Media Labs has a semi similar product to mo pod that I would check out or that I have been doing some experimenting with. I like buying ads on castbox. I like buying ads on overcast and pocket casts. However, those are impression based as opposed to guaranteed. So that's just something to be aware of. It is not something I recommend if you have a limited budget and it's the only thing you're considering. But if you have a limited budget, depending how limited it is and you're trying to spread that out a little bit, I would consider that. I do also like the idea of advertising in newsletters, but most likely not newsletters that are podcast industry focused more so newsletters in your general topic area. I recently did a swap earbuds, my newsletter did a swap with a newsletter called The Future Party, and they brought us 113 clicks and a good percentage of those people converted. I think it was like 25% conversion. And that was that was a free swap. So I posted in my newsletter about them, they posted in mine. But this is all to say the newsletters do work and it just needs to be the right target. It needs to be the right copy. So if you have money, I like spending there, but I would also consider that you might not get the copyright the first time around. So definitely make sure that it is reading right that your call to action is the right one, that you're landing pages optimized for people to press play or to subscribe to your newsletter, whatever it is you're asking them to do. [00:34:32][87.8]

[00:34:33] Speaker 2: Yes, Yes. Okay. This is fun. I am asking. [00:34:38][5.5]

[00:34:39] Speaker 1: Everyone. [00:34:39][0.0]

[00:34:39] Speaker 2: I'm auditing you and you're auditing me. Oh, no, it's shopping. Yes. Okay, Hit me. Okay. You already know my my offerings. [00:34:48][8.9]

[00:34:49] Speaker 1: How should I audit you? Hmm? I wish I prepared this. I just knew that you were going to ask, and then I didn't think to to actually say anything. This is so niche, but I would play around with the. Different colors that you have going on with the podcast bestie stuff in your social images right now. Every time you post an episode, you post the person on a blue background. I would play around with the pink, and the reason for that is because I think people's eyes get tired. And we were talking a little bit about fatigue when it comes to the middle of the season. And now that you are going to be a few episodes in, I think as much as you can shock people. So sometimes that means with social media images, sometimes that means with the copy that you use in order to tell people to subscribe and to leave us a rating and review. But I think in every episode of your show, but also in general, people should be asking their their listeners to do an action. And maybe you want to ask the same thing every week, but make sure you're changing up the wording, make sure you're changing up the colors, make sure you're changing up. This goes for everything. You can ask the same thing, but make sure you kind of shock people so that they never feel like they can skip it. [00:35:56][67.0]

[00:35:56] Speaker 2: Placement. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Okay. Anything else you want to share with the besties before we wrap? You've already shared so much helpful information. You better listen to that trailer park show, but you better else. [00:36:08][12.1]

[00:36:11] Speaker 1: I would say that we are trying to grow the podcast space, both creators and listeners. So whether you're a creator or a listener, tell somebody new about podcasts. There's an initiative right now going on through Lauren Purcell's Tank Media called Adopt a Listener Month. And I don't know when this episode is dropping, but we're recording in April. April is Adopt a Listener month. So if you go to Tink media eco slash adopt, you'll learn a lot about how to adopt a listener and how to just grow the pie, because I think the more people that listen to podcasts, the more likely we are to be able to help people, help creators get paid to continue doing this, and hopefully people can do this for a living. It's so much fun. [00:36:51][40.9]

[00:36:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, love it. That's the dream. Okay. Thank you. Thanks again to Ariel. That was such a good conversation. And just a little note that season one interviews were recorded this spring, but Adopt a Listener month is really every month, right? So we should always be trying to spread the word to new potential podcast listeners. And thank you for tuning in to podcast Bestie, Bestie. Make sure you check out the last episode with Jeff Umbra of the Pod Bomber It if you're hungry for more podcast marketing inspiration and podcast bestie is now on YouTube, so head over to YouTube.com slash at podcast Bestie to subscribe. You can watch my interviews with Ariel, Jeff Umbro, James Cridland and Gary Arndt Podcast Bestie has been getting some awesome new reviews from the podcasting community on Apple Podcasts, so I just want to shout them out right now. I got one from a writer of six packed with useful tips. I was just turned on to this show and listen to the most recent episode, which had a ton of information about ad buys and other audience growth strategies. I'm streaming another one now and look forward to catching up with the feed. So a writer of six, I don't know if you have a show, but if you do, hit me up and let me know about the show so I can shout that out in a future episode. And I got another review from Thorn one, three, two Factor with great info. Thank you so much for this pod. As a newbie podcaster, I feel like there is so much to know and it's hard to know where to begin or who to listen to. This show curates the best in the business and I've learned a ton so far. Looking forward to being besties for a long time. Me too. That is from Maria, the co-host of the Pure Cringe Podcast. And Pure Cringe is a comedy podcast. Here's a little bit about the show. We are Maria and Michelle, two old friends, book lovers and Bravo TV superfans. Join the fun as we review Bravolebrity books and recap classic Bravo TV episodes. That sounds like a fun show. And I got one more review from Looters Podcast Thoughtful and fun Podcast Bestie is full of useful tips about how to survive in the great wilderness of podcasting. I've really enjoyed all the guests so far, and Courtney does a wonderful job gently pushing her interviewees to give specific advice with examples so we can all learn and take action. The podcast Bestie Substack is also a great resource, and I love the partnership with Michael Castaneda, who gives great audio engineering tips. Oh, I love that. I love the shout out for Mike. Mike as my writer Day audio guy. He is the one that makes me sound amazing on these episodes and he does all my shows with me. We have worked together professionally a bunch too, and Mike does a column for the podcast Bestie, Substack, and he is giving the best tips on editing, mixing engineering. So you definitely need to check that out. And right now he is offering paid Besties a mentorship. This is such a high value offer. It's kind of incredible that he's doing this and it's only available for paid besties. So I think that's a great reason to subscribe. You can even do it at the $5 a month monthly level and just do the mentorship. So if you needed a little nudge, there you go. And let me tell you a little bit about the Looters podcast. So looters is an actual play. It's sci fi, western tabletop RPG using the stars without numbers gaming system. And it's actually done by a bunch of improv actors. And I think that is such a good outlet during this strike. So check out the Looters comedy podcast and I'm putting the links to both of these shows in the show notes. So make sure to check out the Pure Cringe podcast and the Looters podcast. And I want to collaborate with you, bestie. If you leave me a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and you email it to me, I'm going to give you a free shout out on the show right here next episode. Plus, there is another super easy way to get featured on the show. You can buy a sponsorship at podcast BestBuy.com slash advertise. I have super affordable packages starting at just $30 and check out my other podcasts for more of my audio creations. I have private parts unknown, which is about love and sexuality around the world and the bleeders about book writing and publishing. And you can follow me in between episodes at Courtney Kozak, that is K, OCR, K on Instagram and Twitter, and I send out lots of newsletter exclusives to my Besties podcast. Bestie actually started as a newsletter and you can subscribe for free, so make sure you're signed up for podcast Bestie on Substack that is podcast bestie dot substack dot com slash welcome until next time happy podcasting by bestie. [00:36:52]

TranscriptCourtney KocakTranscript, podcasting, Courtney Kocak, Podcast Bestie, podcast marketing, networking, audience growth, Arielle Nissenblatt, podcast trailer