Growing Queens Podcast to 100K Downloads Per Month & a Thriving Patreon Community with Katy Hearne-Church
Podcast Bestie, the Podcast
Episode 13 Show Notes
Guest: Katy Hearne-Church, creator and co-host of Queens Podcast
Host: Courtney Kocak, Podcast Bestie founder
Hello Besties! I'm thrilled to share today's episode because it's chock-full of practical takeaways from a popular history podcaster. Katy Hearne-Church created Queens Podcast and recruited her bestie to co-host in 2017 — now the show gets 100K downloads a month and has a thriving Patreon community. In this episode, Katy shares how they nurture their community of diehard listeners on Patreon, the power of promo swaps and polling your audience, and her research and editing process. We also discuss the importance of being obsessed with your topic, setting up a sustainable production and release schedule, and her experience with paid advertising on Instagram. There is so much to learn from this history girlie!
Listen to Queens Podcast.
Sign up for my upcoming workshops, Creating Your Podcast and/or How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought.
Watch the video version of Katy’s interview on YouTube.
If you missed the last episode, check out The Art of the Podcast Trailer with Arielle Nissenblatt.
Thanks to Michael Castañeda for mixing and mastering this episode. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram @plasticaudio.
And thank you to Matt Gilhooly for fine-tuning the video and creating the social media assets for this episode. Follow him on Twitter @theliftshiftpod.
A big thanks to our BFFs for sponsoring this episode:
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TRANSCRIPT (This is a rough AI-generated transcript for immediate accessibility, please excuse any mistakes.)
[00:00:03] Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Katie Hearn Church, and I am the co-host and creator of Queens podcast. Over on Queens, we get a little tipsy and talk about scandalous women from history and just have an all around good time. So we'd love to see you over there and I hope you enjoy my chat with Courtney. Cheers, bitches. [00:00:26]
[00:00:27] Speaker 2: Hey, Podcast Besties. Welcome back to the show dedicated to making your podcast the best it can be. I'm Courtney Kozak, Year B of F in helping you grow and monetize your show, I am so excited to share today's interview because there are so many practical takeaways from a popular history podcaster. Katie actually has worked in the industry, but Queens is her very first podcast. She created the show and recruited her bestie to co-host in 2017. And now the show gets 100,000 downloads a month and has a thriving Patreon community. In this episode, she shares how they nurture their community of diehard listeners on Patreon The Power of Promo Swaps and Polling your audience and her research and editing process. We also discuss the importance of being obsessed with your topic, setting up a sustainable production and release schedule and her experience with paid advertising. There is so much to learn from this history, girly. So let's go. [00:01:32][64.9]
[00:01:34] Speaker 1: I have been co-hosting Queens podcast for six years now. Six years this month. My childhood best friend and I are both massive history nerds and we talk about women in history. We tell their narrative, we tell their story, and he makes really interesting cocktails, the theme of each episode. And it's fun. You know, I feel like I've gotten a lot of feedback since starting of like, I hated history in school. But when I listen to you guys, it's so much fun. And that just brings me so much joy. I love hearing it. So yeah. [00:02:11][37.4]
[00:02:12] Speaker 2: Did you have any inspirational shows going into it where you were like, Oh, I'm inspired? [00:02:17][4.6]
[00:02:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So I started listening to podcasts when I started like having a job where I have to go to Houston a lot, which from Austin, you know, that's like two and a half, 3 hours. And so I was like, I need somebody to talk to. And so I found this show that I had been listening to and we started our podcast. I'd already been listening to it for about three years. I'm called The History Chicks Now the World of Female History Podcasters, or I call us the History Girls isn't huge. So anybody that's in our niche, when I say the history checks and I'm like, Oh, obviously that's who you started. [00:02:58][40.1]
[00:02:58] Speaker 2: Are they still going? [00:02:59][0.6]
[00:02:59] Speaker 1: They're still going. They put out an episode this week. Yeah. Oh, they've been out like 12 years now. [00:03:04][4.6]
[00:03:05] Speaker 2: Have you collaborated with them? [00:03:06][1.2]
[00:03:07] Speaker 1: I haven't collaborated with them. They are very, very busy. But when I first had the idea to start the show, I was like, I feel like I almost need to give them a shout out because it's basically their show, but with booze and cursing and a whole bunch of, Can I curse on this now? Yeah, sure. And a whole bunch of dick jokes. And so I reached out to them and let them know, you know, like, I love your show. This is what I'm thinking of doing. What advice would you give to a new podcaster? And I just didn't understand what podcasting was at that time, and they wrote me back the next day. That's so nice. I almost cried. But they were even like, We don't usually have a chance to write back this quickly. But I totally were able to, and here's some advice, and they sent me like links to like, you know, if you're just getting started, hear the mics you should start with. And yeah, it was, it was really nice. [00:03:57][50.9]
[00:03:58] Speaker 2: So yeah, I love that I one time I've only been able to do it for one person, but I got a message like that one time and I did a zoom and it was like, you know, it's a lot of time for someone you don't know. It's a big ask. But yeah, I think those girls started their podcast. Do all of it. Yeah, it kind of inspired me to teach my class at Pandemic University because I was like, I would love to give this advice. I can't do these calls all the time, but I could, you know. [00:04:27][29.2]
[00:04:27] Speaker 1: Give it to the masses. [00:04:28][0.5]
[00:04:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. [00:04:29][0.9]
[00:04:30] Speaker 1: Because there are so many people. I mean, there are so many how to start your podcast, you know, help articles out there, research. But if you're just getting started, sometimes it's like RSS feed, you know, us be. [00:04:43][13.3]
[00:04:44] Speaker 2: Like totally like, tell me like I'm just so. [00:04:46][2.5]
[00:04:47] Speaker 1: Stupid like that. [00:04:47][0.6]
[00:04:47] Speaker 2: Because I am. [00:04:48][0.4]
[00:04:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I really appreciated them. They did kind of just send me links and everything, but just the fact it kind of almost felt like a sign, like, Oh, the show that I reached out to, my favorite podcast is responding to me their blessing. [00:05:02][14.1]
[00:05:03] Speaker 2: You. [00:05:03][0.0]
[00:05:03] Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. And so we've never gotten to collaborate, but we have been tagged in a lot of stuff together online in the same kind of list and stuff. So we are definitely cognizant of each other and we definitely support each other. So, yeah, that's great. [00:05:18][14.9]
[00:05:19] Speaker 2: That's a really cute story. Yeah, I'm putting it out there. You guys should collab. [00:05:22][3.4]
[00:05:25] Speaker 1: I think they might be a little bit scandalized by the language we use though. [00:05:28][2.9]
[00:05:28] Speaker 2: Oh really? [00:05:28][0.2]
[00:05:29] Speaker 1: They're very much a PG rated show. [00:05:31][1.8]
[00:05:31] Speaker 2: Okay, well, maybe you'll have to button up your language for maybe. [00:05:34][2.6]
[00:05:35] Speaker 1: Maybe that's okay. I do it for the history. I do it for the chicks. I do it for the chicks. [00:05:38][3.4]
[00:05:39] Speaker 2: Okay, so let's talk about your I mean, did you have a launch strategy six years ago or was that like. No. Um, I. [00:05:48][9.2]
[00:05:50] Speaker 1: I didn't really know. I was just like. And this has always been my personality. I'm like, Let's just do it. [00:05:57][6.7]
[00:05:57] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:05:57][0.0]
[00:05:58] Speaker 1: Figure it out. And so, like, I knew I didn't want to do it on my own. So I called my friend that I knew was also very interested in history. And I was like, Do you want to try this and see how it goes? And so like literally our first couple of episodes were us huddled around one USB, my oh, in my bedroom, because it was just like, I don't want to spend a whole lot of time. If I didn't think it would end up if we ended up not liking it, if we ended up not finding our audience. And so I was like, Let's just learn as we go. And that's what we did. And we just guy, you know, a year later we had new equipment and we had X, Y, Z followers, and then a next year later we had a page on page and we had, you know, and it just went and went from there. So that's probably not the advice I would give somebody else. But that was my journey. [00:06:46][48.2]
[00:06:47] Speaker 2: You know what? A lot of times that is my advice is just like launch fast and test and learn. I don't know. You can wait and like have the perfect marketing strategy, but you might be very disappointed by the outcome of that marketing strategy. And so you sometimes need to just like, evolve as you go. Okay, so hit us with a couple of the big growth milestones. Was there anything where you were like, Oh, okay, we're at another level where there was a discernible reason for it? [00:07:21][33.8]
[00:07:22] Speaker 1: Well, so when we first started our Patreon on page about a year or so, maybe a year and a half into doing the podcast, we literally set the limit or the goal as $30 a month. We were like $30 a month. That would cover the price of our cocktails and the price of our hosting fee. Uh huh. That's all we need. We met that within about two weeks. ONA and we are now. I don't know, is it rude to talk about We're now at 623 subscribers on Patreon. [00:07:52][30.1]
[00:07:53] Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I think people will love numbers. Okay, that's great. That's actually like a lot of patrons. [00:07:58][4.9]
[00:07:59] Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, we had to. We had to set up an LLC this year and everything. So that has been my big when I'm looking at our numbers, I mean, looking at your download numbers and everything are great. Looking at your ad numbers coming in is great for me, though. I look at when our patron fluctuates, it's just one easier to gauge and to. That's our that's our. That's the diehards. That's our die hards. So if the numbers going down with that, that's when I'm like, What are we doing? Yeah, but when we set it up and posted on our Facebook page at the time, I think that was the only social media we had like, Hey, we're setting up a patron. I was literally expecting like because when we started this thing, my whole goal, I was like, maybe I'll make two or three friends that also like history. And now we're at 100,000 downloads a month, you know? [00:08:51][52.7]
[00:08:52] Speaker 2: Oh, nice. Okay. And you released weekly. [00:08:55][2.9]
[00:08:56] Speaker 1: Twice a month. However, I will say we have started a new strategy lately because we have such a large back catalog now. [00:09:03][7.7]
[00:09:04] Speaker 2: Huh? [00:09:04][0.0]
[00:09:04] Speaker 1: That if we release an episode and there's something in our back catalog that relates to that one, we're going to rerun an episode in between. So for instance, we just did an episode on a woman who was a ballerina during the Russian Revolution, and we've referenced the last queen of Russia who was also alive at the same time, and they actually shared a lover and stuff like that. So we reran that episode afterwards as like a supplemental. And I do think it helped our numbers quite a bit. [00:09:36][31.6]
[00:09:37] Speaker 2: And that's taking the one of those two spots per month or you're running in addition to those two spots in. [00:09:43][6.3]
[00:09:43] Speaker 1: The blank spot. So we usually post like the second Wednesday and fourth Wednesday of a month. So that one, I was like, Oh, well, this one's just kind of like a bonus episode on the third Wednesday. [00:09:54][11.0]
[00:09:55] Speaker 2: Oh, nice. Okay, cool. So you're like probably three times as big as private parts unknown. Which is my like podcast that I've also been doing for, you know, six year 20 since 2016. And I also do twice. Like every other week. Just for sustainability. Yeah. Did you ever do weekly? How did you land on. [00:10:20][24.4]
[00:10:21] Speaker 1: No. So me and my co-host don't live together. We're both adults with adult lives and other jobs. Twice a month. Four main episodes is all we can sustain. However we do Patreon episodes, we throw that in as well. But those are a lot. Those are less researched. Those are a lot less so that I would love. I would absolutely love to do more often, but it's too much of an ask of my partner and it's too much of an ask of myself at this time. But I have set a magic number in my head for Patreon supporters for when I can quit my day job. [00:11:02][41.4]
[00:11:02] Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. I think the sustainability piece is huge. Like you have to acknowledge your baseline fade. [00:11:10][7.9]
[00:11:11] Speaker 1: Yes, pod fades real. [00:11:12][1.1]
[00:11:13] Speaker 2: I would rather release twice a month and like feel really good about those episodes and serving my audience. Then I actually like feel burnt out and like, feel like I'm constantly making this podcast, you know, like it's got to feel good. [00:11:25][12.3]
[00:11:26] Speaker 1: Exactly. Totally. You have to love what you're podcasting about also. Yeah, I that would be my very first. If you're starting a podcast, it's like, what's it about now? Oh, we're just going to shoot the shit. It's not going to last. You need to have something that you're going to be passionate about that you can talk about and like engage with your community about. [00:11:49][22.6]
[00:11:49] Speaker 2: A topic you're obsessed with. [00:11:51][1.3]
[00:11:51] Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes. Like, I don't think I ever read a book that wasn't historical fiction in like, even before the podcast started. It's like I just I'm obsessed with women in history and I don't think there's a whole lot of other stuff that I could do. What kind of content line? So that is also my advice. Sustainability is very important, but being obsessed is also a huge part of it. [00:12:14][23.2]
[00:12:17] Speaker 2: Hey, besties. Robot Boost has helped me reach so many new listeners for this podcast. Maybe even you. And the proof is in the pudding, baby. I am thrilled to share that podcast. Bestie now has over 55,000 downloads and Mopar has definitely given me a boost in that department. What is Mopar BOD? Good question. It's an effective, targeted way to promote your show. It's already trusted by industry giants like Conde Nast, Iheartmedia and the HubSpot Podcast Network, and that's because it works. But Mopar isn't just for the big guys. Mobile ad boost is perfect for indie podcasters like me and you. How does it work? Well, Mobile's groundbreaking technology transforms your podcast episodes into captivating display ads. These ads are then optimized and strategically placed across the web. Steering listeners right back to your podcast, and there has been an exciting new wave of updates to mobile boost self-serve that include the ability to generate impactful ad copy using A.I. and the implementation of sophisticated targeting options such as geolocation, age, gender and household income. Podcasters can now pull comprehensive campaign reports straight from the platform, delivering insights on audience demographics, devices, daily delivery statistics, creative performance and even granular geographic data. Robot Boost has actually been my favorite paid advertising experiment to date. I've used it on all my shows and you can try it for just $100. Plus, if you're a bestie, you get 10% off with the link in the description. So try it out and let me know what you think. So tell me about the research process, because you guys are doing like it's a conversation, but you actually, you know, have researched these. [00:14:13][115.6]
[00:14:13] Speaker 1: People stories ad nauseum. Yes. There have been some times whenever I like, get down to reading a topic or researching on a topic that is just like, I need to remove this person from my head because they have like become part of my psyche. But yeah, we try our hardest to plan out the whole season, but we also really, really like to get community feedback because our community is obsessed with women in history as well. So we try to leave slots a few times a season for Hey, vote on somebody or let the patrons tell us who they want to hear. Like this season, we let our top tier Patreon supporters, which is 15. Usually it's a theme. It's like, pick somebody from World War Two that you want to hear about. But this was just like, you're our top 25 supporters. You all tell us and someone just picked something. And so then I will then research and Nathan does his research. I build out the outline. Mm hmm. And when I tell Nathan when I'm done, and then he goes in and adds his speaking parts and adds what he wants to talk about, it usually takes me, I would say, 6 to 8 hours to research each episode. [00:15:31][78.1]
[00:15:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of research. [00:15:33][0.7]
[00:15:33] Speaker 1: Yeah. But it does also pay off in Patreon content because there's there's stuff that'll get cut and we decide we're not going to have enough time to talk about this random thing, even though I researched it for 30 minutes. So then that's where the page on episodes come in. [00:15:50][16.7]
[00:15:50] Speaker 2: And you let those be production wise, like rougher. [00:15:53][2.4]
[00:15:54] Speaker 1: Rougher. I mean, we still like edit a little bit, but like not, I'm not putting it through I phonic and I, you know, I'm not going through and taking out every well, Nathan edits the page, you're on episodes and I edit the regular episodes unless we have like something going on in our life and we have to switch. But yeah, the patron episodes are I mean, we still take out bloopers unless they're funny. But yeah, we're not, we're not going through with a fine tooth comb. [00:16:21][27.1]
[00:16:22] Speaker 2: Totally. So when you're editing, how long is that process approximately? [00:16:26][4.5]
[00:16:27] Speaker 1: So we also release one of the patron rewards as quote unquote less edited episodes. So I do my first edit and I'll even like funny little bloopers, but I also they're getting it without ads. So that's really that. They're getting it two days early without ads and then funny little bloopers like And this last episode, Nathan lost his place in the outline, and for some reason it turned into us singing a song being like, Where do we go? It, you know, like just doing this like cute little song that's on The Patriot and not in the regular one. So the first edit probably takes about 2 hours, then the second edit goes a lot faster because most of it's already taken out something that's probably like 45 minutes. And then. Run it through a phonic, put on the intro, outro, add breaks and everything. So I guess all in total, 3 to 4 hours. [00:17:21][54.1]
[00:17:22] Speaker 2: What's a phonic? [00:17:23][0.8]
[00:17:24] Speaker 1: A You and I see, because we just use audacity for a lot of our editing and things. So it's a little bit limited. And I'm not a sound engineer. A phonic is a platform where you. [00:17:38][14.3]
[00:17:38] Speaker 2: Pick filters. [00:17:38][0.2]
[00:17:39] Speaker 1: It levels things out. Like if one of us is much louder than the other one, if there's a bunch of weird background noise, it's not a perfect tool because it's only like, I think it's like $3 for a few hours per class. Like it's not a perfect tool, but I also don't have time to go learn ProTools, you know? So it helps. And I'll sometimes if I come across like an old episode that I'm like, Oh, maybe we run this through a phonics, maybe this can help from the one mic huddled around a laptop face. Yeah. [00:18:10][30.5]
[00:18:10] Speaker 2: That's hilarious. Hey, besties. Just a quick word from our sponsor, Memento, which I actually use on the YouTube channels, and to create social media assets for all of my shows. Because guess what? Being successful with podcasts and video is a full time job that most people don't have the time or experience to do. Right. It's a lot, but with momentum you get an end to end video marketing tool that finds your shareable moments, creates beautiful shorts and even schedules straight to social. And it can do even more. Memento can also write high quality show notes, social posts, tweets, and even jokes from your content. I am telling you you need momentum in your life. Your first upload is free. There's a link in the shownotes with a free trial. So what are you waiting for? Go see what I can do with your video. And if you want me to talk about you right here on the show, you can buy a sponsorship to podcast bestie at podcast Bestfares.com slash advertise. Okay, now back to the show. Okay, So I want to get into. You've done a lot of promo swaps and I want to know your strategy for that. And I think when I was listening, there were ads and promo swaps in the episode and you do your front intro thing. So I want to know your whole strategy. [00:19:38][87.2]
[00:19:38] Speaker 1: So, all right, let me start at the beginning of the episode and work my way through. I feel like, yeah, so we like I said, we curse and we use dirty language and we are not child friendly. Even though we have a lot of kit, we get a lot of fan mail from like 12 year olds whose parents listen with them. [00:19:57][18.7]
[00:19:58] Speaker 2: We hear their tone. [00:19:59][1.6]
[00:19:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, we get both of them being like, whatever. They watch HBO, it's fine. At least they're learning something with this. But the first year, like the first, like three years of our show, we got so many bad reviews that were like, They curse this show. I can't handle the language well, like, and even though there's an explicit warning, like, Right, whatever. So at first Nathan and I started doing like a disclaimer. It's we're going down this road, hey, there's going to be cursing in this episode. And then it just I was one day I was like, This is boring hearing every single episode. Wouldn't it be cool if other podcasters came on to say, Hey, Katie and Nathan invited us to tell you? Da da da da da. But if you do like cursing in history, then you'll like this show. Or if you don't like cursing in history, our show is clean. Or if you, you know, whatever the byline is there because we have been doing promo swaps. When we first got in the game, promo swaps were a huge game changer for us. Right now, we're not really doing so much promo swaps unless the show is bigger. But I want to help the other history girls. I want to, you know, I want to continue to build this community. I'm not just after it because I want more Patreon supporters. I literally just want the history girlies to be around. So I have people to talk to, right? So that's when we can start inviting people in to do these disclaimers for us. [00:21:32][93.0]
[00:21:33] Speaker 2: It's so smart. [00:21:34][0.6]
[00:21:34] Speaker 1: It's been such a fun experience because then, you know, they promote the show to their listeners and then also our listeners come to us. I get probably an email or a Facebook message or an Instagram message at least once a week being like, who was that show and who was that promo that sounded fun. I forgot to write it down, though. Who was it? And so I'm like, Oh, here's their link. Follow them here. You know, that's and then for promos in the middle of episodes, those are probably dynamically inserted because we did recently join a network. [00:22:06][31.8]
[00:22:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about that. [00:22:08][0.9]
[00:22:08] Speaker 1: Yeah. And they, you know, insert promos from other shows because the network that we joined does specifically focus in like educational podcast. So when I was joined, I was like, you know, we make a lot of dick jokes. Our tagline is History is a bag of dicks, because I don't know if you know much about women's. [00:22:29][20.5]
[00:22:29] Speaker 2: History. [00:22:29][0.0]
[00:22:30] Speaker 1: Money. And so when he was like, We're looking for educational shows, I was like, you know where language, right? And he was like, Yes, But so we joined the network and now they do dynamically inserted promos for us on other shows in the network. And they've also gotten us in some really shows that aren't on the networks and bigger shows that I was really interested to learn. Do you have you heard what's it called, significant others? No, it's a really, really interesting podcast that I do think our listeners would be interested. So I hope that their listeners would be interested in us. It's hosted by Oh God, I'm such a bad feminist. I can't remember her name, but she is CONAN O'Brien's wife. And so it's called significant others, and it's about the significant others, a famous people in history. Oh, and so they were able to run an ad for us and that show, which isn't on the network, but still, I guess you know aligned and totally. Yeah. And that was also a huge boost for us as well. [00:23:32][62.2]
[00:23:33] Speaker 2: So with your size, like, can you tell really when something is working At this point? I just interviewed someone else who's kind of in your category. He's like, It's kind of hard to tell what moves the needle at this point. [00:23:45][12.4]
[00:23:46] Speaker 1: It kind of is hard to tell what moves the needle. That's a great way to put it, because like, you know, when we were at 3000 downloads a month, if I saw a 2000 download dump, I'd be like, Oh, but now you see a 2000 download dump. I'm sort of like, well, maybe just it was the holidays and people weren't. You know, it is it is kind of hard to gauge. So again, I, I know I should look at my numbers more, but I look at my Patreon, I look at our Patreon followers the most to gauge and I'm never mad if somebody like joins the patron listens to all the episodes and bounces, listens to extra content and gets out. Like, I'm never mad at that because I'm happy that they decided to spend. But if there's a significant dip there, I'm like, Oh, what have we done? [00:24:34][48.6]
[00:24:35] Speaker 2: Are you making like comparable money from ads as you are from Patreon? [00:24:40][4.9]
[00:24:41] Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Now Patreon is our bread and butter. Now we are new to the network, so we haven't gotten our first payout from them. We were on. I don't know how much you want me to talk about different. We were. [00:24:54][13.7]
[00:24:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. You can dive into the specifics. That's what these nerds are here for. Okay. [00:24:58][3.4]
[00:25:00] Speaker 1: So in my personal life, I was the community manager and my day job for a cast for a year. [00:25:06][5.9]
[00:25:07] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. So you're been in this industry? [00:25:09][2.2]
[00:25:10] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And so that's how I know. Like Lauren and Ariel and Becky and all those girls. And. Hey, if any of you are listening. Hi. And so we were on the acast marketplace for a really long time, and it was just so easy. But we were getting like maybe 200 a month or something like that. [00:25:33][23.3]
[00:25:33] Speaker 2: Not spelling out all your spots. [00:25:35][1.1]
[00:25:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, or just and it was just sort of like I would look at our numbers and I would be like, There's got to be something better out there. So that was why we switched. Yeah. However, I will say a CASA as a platform has some really cool gadgets. Like, I was really disappointed. I don't work there anymore either, but I was really disappointed. Not disappointed. I was bummed to leave them and missed some of like the cool integrations, like the transcript and like the YouTube integration and stuff. [00:26:06][30.4]
[00:26:06] Speaker 2: When you had to move for the network. [00:26:08][1.1]
[00:26:08] Speaker 1: I had to because I just felt like I felt like at that point we were making enough that we could get more of a handholding with help from other places. And this network had reached out to us previously when I was still my day job was still at Acast. And so I was like, Oh no, I can't. I have to stay here. And then after I left my day job on good terms, I'm still very friendly with everyone there. But then they reached out again and I was like. [00:26:39][30.5]
[00:26:40] Speaker 2: Okay, let's see how this time let's do it. [00:26:42][2.7]
[00:26:42] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:26:42][0.0]
[00:26:43] Speaker 2: So early promo swapping, you know, pre network. What? Shoot your. [00:26:48][4.4]
[00:26:48] Speaker 1: Shot. Shoot your shot. That's my advice. If you are just getting started, promo swaps is the way to go. Find your niche. Find somebody very specifically in your niche and shoot your shot. The worst thing they can do is leave you on read and who cares, you know? [00:27:06][17.5]
[00:27:06] Speaker 2: So were you only going out to History girl lives or were you going out to like other adjacent kind of similar demos? Like how broad was it? [00:27:16][10.0]
[00:27:17] Speaker 1: When I first started, I was like, okay, are two demographics is cocktail related and history girls. So I went after both. Okay. And there are so many tools out there that you can find of like who listens to you and what else they're listening to. Is that re phonic. [00:27:34][17.8]
[00:27:35] Speaker 2: Phonic Yeah. [00:27:36][0.5]
[00:27:36] Speaker 1: Or even just opening up iTunes and seeing we reach out to them. The worst that can happen is they don't respond to you. And that's what I did. I just shot my shot with everybody. I mean, I listened to it first just to make sure it wasn't like, Oh, actually, no, thank you, but just shoot your shot. The worst they can say is no, but this is a funny thing. When I first started podcasting, there were these podcasters that I thought were celebrities like, and when they emailed me back, I was just so happy. Even be considered, you know, And so most of them are going to be like, sure, I can share a story on my Instagram page. I can put your promo at the end of an episode, like why not? Why not? And I feel like that helped our growth at the beginning. Right now, it's not our goal like it used to be, But when I was first getting started, yes, that helped us so much. I still actually have people. There's this one podcast, they were called Tutor. I hardly know her, and I was a Tutor history podcast and we did an episode with them back before we eventually decided not to do guest spots anymore, just to make sure our own show was quality. But at the very beginning we did an episode with them that was like six years ago. Five and a half years ago. I got a DM the other day being like, Hey, I listened to an old episode of Tutor, I hardly know where and I just found ya. Oh, just do it, you know. [00:29:12][95.7]
[00:29:12] Speaker 2: I know it's got a long tail for. [00:29:13][1.4]
[00:29:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. [00:29:14][0.5]
[00:29:15] Speaker 2: So when you're approaching these people, I mean it definitely helps that you listened, because I feel like any time I can tell when someone's approaching me and they are familiar with my thing, regardless of what it is, which podcast or which thing, I'm like, you don't know, like you shouldn't be pitching me because you really can't even speak the language for one sentence. [00:29:37][21.7]
[00:29:38] Speaker 1: Yes, so many stories with random. Oh my gosh, You obviously haven't listened to me pitch. [00:29:43][4.5]
[00:29:43] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. So what was your approach and were you I mean, were you making it clear like I loved this episode or like, what were you saying to them when you reached out? [00:29:55][12.0]
[00:29:56] Speaker 1: My biggest shoot your shot moment as since you're not he's not necessarily history, girly, but in the history sphere, he's a big deal. Do you know Mike Duncan? [00:30:06][10.3]
[00:30:07] Speaker 2: It sounds familiar. [00:30:07][0.5]
[00:30:08] Speaker 1: He's got several podcast. He's also had bestselling books out amongst the history people. I knew that he had like commented something that I had commented on on Twitter before. And so like I for a couple of years ago for our season premiere, I was like, I would love if he did our intro. And so I messaged him and like, literally, I was just like, If you don't read this, I'm not going to be mad. Like, it was very much like a humble like, Huh? But if you feel like it, we would love for you to do. He sent us two different promos. Oh, he's a clean one and a dirty one in which we use the dirty one on Patron. The clean one. Or he's like. If you don't like her, the show won't be free of the dirty one. He's like, If you don't like her, see what the fuck is wrong with you? Get off and read a book like yours. That was such a fan girl moment for us. Even though it was such a little thing, it probably only took him like 3 minutes to do and it meant so much to us. And it actually all of our fans were like, How did you get Mike Duncan to do your. So just I mean, so we approach it of just being like respectful of your time. I know you might not have time, but hey, if you do, I would really appreciate it. Keep it short, keep it sweet and kiss a little bit of ass. Yeah. Would be my would be my outline there. [00:31:45][96.8]
[00:31:46] Speaker 2: That's a good recipe. So, okay, I love the strategy of asking for them to do the thing because you're not. I mean, were you ever asking them anything in return? Aside from like. [00:31:58][12.7]
[00:31:59] Speaker 1: I mean, if they ask for something in return. I mean, obviously for him, like I posted on Twitter, just like, oh, my fucking God, Mike Duncan just responded to us, you know? But usually I don't give them a thing except for that I'll tag you, you know, the show description. [00:32:15][16.5]
[00:32:17] Speaker 2: But you're not asking them. They're going on your show and like doing the intro, but you're it's not like swap. [00:32:24][7.4]
[00:32:25] Speaker 1: Normally we don't really do swaps any longer. Now it's just asking people to come on and it's about building relationships and it's just fun. [00:32:36][10.4]
[00:32:37] Speaker 2: So were you early days you were doing like 1 to 1 swaps. Where you going with some that were smaller and some that were bigger? What was your strategy there. [00:32:45][8.3]
[00:32:46] Speaker 1: When we were doing swaps? Honestly, it just it was cool, but it was just again, like I said earlier and me and my partner both have full time jobs and everything. It was just too much. Right. So we kind of quit sending our promos out to people after about a year and a half. And about the time that we started our Patreon, we were like, Well, it's baked into old episodes. They'll find us. But yeah, we still if someone sends us a promo these days, like we'll try to put it in an episode or at least posted on Instagram or something because I am just here for the community so hard. [00:33:24][37.4]
[00:33:24] Speaker 2: That's so cute. Hey, besties. Did you know that podcast Bestie is also a newsletter? Yeah, it actually started as a newsletter first, and I send out loads of exclusives to my besties in the newsletter that you can't even get on the podcast. So you need to make sure you're signed up for podcast Bestie on Substack that is podcast bestie dot substack dot com slash welcome. There is a link in the show notes so head on down and make sure you get on the list. Okay, so one thing when I was listening to the episode. [00:34:00][35.9]
[00:34:01] Speaker 1: Which episode did you listen to? I'm just curious. [00:34:03][1.3]
[00:34:03] Speaker 2: I think the most recent one growing. [00:34:05][1.7]
[00:34:05] Speaker 1: You are. [00:34:06][0.5]
[00:34:06] Speaker 2: Great. Pirate Great. Yeah. Yes. But Grace isn't her real. You did the Gaelic thing, but I don't know how to say that, Granny. [00:34:12][6.4]
[00:34:13] Speaker 1: Okay. Bronya. Yeah. [00:34:14][0.8]
[00:34:15] Speaker 2: Okay. So there was a listener survey, though, like halfway through or something. Is that a network. [00:34:20][4.9]
[00:34:20] Speaker 1: Thing that's baked in? That's like a Big Ten ad? Yeah, we didn't do that. That was like a Yeah, which I. I've looked at the survey though. We gave them permission, I looked at it and it's I could see why a network would want to see the questions on there. [00:34:34][14.3]
[00:34:35] Speaker 2: Totally. So when you say because you were like when an audience tells you what they want, listen to them. You're not basing that on the listener survey. That's more for like ads. You're basing it on like what you're hearing from your patrons. [00:34:47][11.7]
[00:34:48] Speaker 1: Yes, because the listener survey from the network was a lot more of like about your demographics. Yeah. And when I said because listeners, Courtney sent me a survey or questions and like one of the things I said is like when your listeners tell you what they want, listen to them. What I meant by that is if a listener, if you've gotten like 15 requests for a certain topic, do it, or if you've gotten, Hey, we didn't really love when you did X, Y, Z, don't do that again. Or and even we one time made an episode and someone didn't like a certain word we used. So in the next episode we were like, Hey guys, we actually didn't even realize that this was. So listen to the feedback you're getting. You're going to get dumb feedback. Like there's we've got Apple reviews that are just like, I don't like the girls voice and it's like, I can't do anything with that. But if your actual community is telling you I do like this, I don't like this, listen to them. Yeah. [00:35:50][62.3]
[00:35:50] Speaker 2: And how do you do the polls You mentioned you run polls. [00:35:53][3.1]
[00:35:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, we've run polls a couple of different ways. There's on Instagram stories. We've done a lot of fun stuff. There's so many interactive. Of options on Instagram stories, but we can run polls being like, Who do you want to hear next and do it that way. But we've also run polls with our Patreon supporters of Who Do you want to hear next? And some of them like a SurveyMonkey link to go to. You know, we might already have something in the can, but hey, maybe it's going to be like, What do you want next season to start with, right? There's so many ways that you can get everyone pulled in and make them feel like they're part of it. And when they feel like they're part of it, they feel like they got it. Press play on your next episode. [00:36:37][43.0]
[00:36:38] Speaker 2: Totally. Totally. So do you guys run your own social? [00:36:41][3.1]
[00:36:42] Speaker 1: I run the social. Nathan is and I knew this going into this. He has a little bit of social anxiety and I'm not telling on anything that he wouldn't talk about openly himself. And so he told me at the beginning of like social media gives me really bad anxiety. And I was like, Enough, I got this. So I run the social media myself. We are considering getting a virtual assistant, though, at this point to start helping, but for the most part, I run the social media ourselves and our biggest focus is on Instagram. I would say social media is part of your marketing strategy, research your core audience and see where they are most active women in their late twenties to mid thirties, which is our core audience is Instagram. So yeah, there we go. [00:37:31][49.7]
[00:37:32] Speaker 2: Nice. Have you paid for ads at any point like when you guys were just starting out, did you buy overcast ads or any. Whether they were mistakes or not, We. [00:37:44][11.8]
[00:37:45] Speaker 1: Until last year we were doing social media paying for social media ads. [00:37:49][3.9]
[00:37:50] Speaker 2: Oh, really? Were they working? [00:37:50][0.8]
[00:37:51] Speaker 1: Yes and no. I don't know that I necessarily saw a spike in our downloads. And if it was not enough for what we were paying, but I'm glad that we experimented with it. But we were getting, you know, more followers and more shares. That's what I when I look at my social media metrics, I'm looking at shares. I want to see who I'm getting advertisement from. Because if someone that follows you shares it with a friend, that is free. Advertisement. So that's how I judged it. So if you're looking at that and engagement, yes, but it wasn't necessarily translating enough to downloads to count. But I also I have a lot of creators that I follow on Instagram that maybe I haven't listened to every single episode of theirs, but maybe one day they're going to post something that makes me go, Oh, I got to go check that out. So we decided this year that wasn't anything that we were going to do anymore. But we did do that for like three years. That's the only ads we've ever paid for. [00:38:59][68.2]
[00:39:00] Speaker 2: Okay, cool. Well, this has been so awesome. I you've been so helpful. I think I'm going to share your list with everyone, if that's okay, because we touched on a lot of it. But you had a really like, thorough list. I was like, This is great. [00:39:14][13.8]
[00:39:14] Speaker 1: You can tell I'm an absolute nerd on so many levels. [00:39:17][2.8]
[00:39:18] Speaker 2: Well, you fit in perfectly here. Oh, this is what I'm doing. Sorry. I should have warned you about this future people. No, but I'm incorporating a new recurring question. You're the second person ever to do this. But Lauren Purcell was like, I'm her. [00:39:33][15.4]
[00:39:33] Speaker 1: Love her. [00:39:34][0.5]
[00:39:34] Speaker 2: I know. She's amazing. Chef's kiss. She was like, I would love it if you did a recurring question, and people love that on my other podcast too. So I'm asking you to audit me. You have seen Podcast Bestie, so maybe that's your best reference, but of anything that you've seen, if you have a little tidbit of like or an assignment. [00:39:56][22.1]
[00:39:58] Speaker 1: I don't think you understand how anal retentive I am, this anxiety thing because I actually love auditing stuff. I would but like just to have it because I love Podcast Bestie, the newsletter newsletter, but I've never looked at it with the with the. [00:40:16][18.8]
[00:40:17] Speaker 2: Lens of. [00:40:17][0.4]
[00:40:17] Speaker 1: Analyst. [00:40:17][0.0]
[00:40:18] Speaker 2: Being kind of cool, right? Oh, you're so sweet. Okay, well, maybe I'll let me. [00:40:23][4.9]
[00:40:23] Speaker 1: Think because I do want to give you feedback. So if I could think maybe, maybe you could provide more. You know, how pod news does the live events that are coming up? Yeah, like live events for people that might have a little touch of the ADHD that trying to read things, maybe you could list more. Who's doing webinars, who's doing courses that are free or very, very affordable? Yeah, affordable that you can like pop into on your lunch break or something and ask questions. Maybe that could be a good thing for an. History to dig into. And that's just like off the top of my head if I'm being like, super, super nerdy. [00:41:06][42.8]
[00:41:07] Speaker 2: No, I love that. I've actually been thinking of I might do some episodes that are based on I don't. Twitter spaces. Are they even going to support that anymore if they are? [00:41:16][9.0]
[00:41:16] Speaker 1: I mean, I saw a Twitter space a couple of days ago. [00:41:19][2.5]
[00:41:19] Speaker 2: Yes, I think they are. It's maybe a precarious situation, but my thought was I could do some panels on Twitter spaces and then use that, you know, like then re-air them on the podcast. Yeah. Anybody that missed it. [00:41:34][15.0]
[00:41:35] Speaker 1: Or Instagram lives or TikTok lives or. Yeah, Yeah, I'm all for that. I'm all for sharing the education for people whose short attention spans. [00:41:45][10.0]
[00:41:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think there's a lot of different formats. You can kind of it's like maybe not everybody's going to listen to the podcast, but if I do a little recap in the newsletter, it's like still valuable for them to keep receiving it and yada yada. [00:42:00][14.5]
[00:42:00] Speaker 1: Different people learn different ways. [00:42:02][1.5]
[00:42:03] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:42:03][0.0]
[00:42:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. [00:42:04][0.5]
[00:42:05] Speaker 2: Any final words to the besties before you go? [00:42:07][2.5]
[00:42:08] Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. Well, this was so much fun. [00:42:11][2.5]
[00:42:12] Speaker 2: It was great getting to know you. [00:42:13][1.1]
[00:42:13] Speaker 1: You know, this is actually a good a good example of shooting your shot because I've been subscribing to podcast Bestie. I think I saw it through Lauren's LC and Lauren Club together. [00:42:25][12.2]
[00:42:26] Speaker 2: We did a few months, several months ago. [00:42:28][1.8]
[00:42:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's how I became aware of Podcast Bestie and I was like, This is such a cool newsletter. And I was like, Oh, that's so cool. And then when I saw like, Oh, it's becoming a podcast. Let us know if you want to be on it. And I shot my shot and here I am. So reach out, get out there. Don't be afraid to hustle. The worst thing that can happen is they say no, and then you just go about your day. So that's my advice to everybody. [00:42:54][25.5]
[00:42:55] Speaker 2: Words of wisdom. Well, thank you so much for your time. This lovely to have this chat. [00:42:59][4.2]
[00:42:59] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. [00:43:00][0.9]
[00:43:02] Speaker 2: Thanks again to Katie and thank you for tuning in to podcast Bestie Bestie. Make sure you check out the last episode with Ariel Ness in black for the 411 on what makes a great podcast, trailer and podcast Bestie is now on YouTube, so head over to YouTube.com slash at podcast Bestie to subscribe. You can watch my interviews with Arielle, Jeff Umbro, James Cridland, Gary Arndt, and more. And Podcast Bestie has been getting some awesome reviews from the podcasting community on Apple Podcasts. I got a new review from Meg Linn. Sam Helpful and entertaining. I can't get enough of this new podcast. As an indie podcaster, the information shared here is gold. Her guests are high quality and not afraid to share details. Looking forward to many more episodes. Meg Lin. Sam, let me know if you have a podcast. I would be happy to give it a shout out on this show and I want to collaborate with you bestie. If you leave me a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and you email it to me or you leave your information in the review, I will give you a free shout out for your podcast on the show right here next episode. Plus, there's another super easy way to get featured on the show. You can buy a sponsorship at podcast BestBuy.com slash advertise. I have super affordable packages starting at $25 and check out my other podcast for more of my audio creations. I have private parts unknown, which is about love and sexuality around the world and the bleeders about book writing and publishing. You can follow me inbetween episodes at Courtney Co SAC that is K OCR, K on Instagram and Twitter. And of course, make sure you're signed up for the Podcast Bestie newsletter on Substack that is podcast bestie dot substack dot com slash welcome. Until next time have you podcasting by bestie or. [00:43:02]