How to Go Pro & Get Started as a Freelance Podcast Producer with Pod the North's Kattie Laur
Podcast Bestie, the Podcast
Episode 8 Show Notes
Guest: Kattie Laur, award-winning freelance podcast producer, Alpaca My Bags co-creator, and Pod the North founder
Host: Courtney Kocak, Podcast Bestie founder
Hi Besties! Whether you're trying to get your indie show off the ground, break into freelancing, or recover from burnout, this episode has something for folks at every stage of their audio journey. Our guest is Kattie Laur, a public radio enthusiast who turned her passion for audio storytelling into a career as a freelance podcast producer.
As co-creator of the responsible travel podcast Alpaca My Bags, Kattie and host Erin Hynes help you travel in a better way, so we can avoid “blowing up the planet” — a worthy goal, indeed. After studying radio and completing a CBC internship, Kattie has also managed gain a professional foothold in the industry and share her ever-evolving audio expertise with numerous podcasting clients. Besides producing podcasts, Kattie also writes the Pod the North newsletter, providing valuable conversations and community for Canadian podcasters.
Connect with Kattie @podkatt on Twitter.
Subscribe to Kattie’s newsletter Pod the North.
Tune into Kattie’s indie podcast, Alpaca My Bags. (They’re trying to grow. Maybe there’s an opportunity to collab?)
Sign up for my upcoming workshop How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought.
If you missed the last episode, check out Organic Growth Hack: Recurring Collaborations with Niche Podcasts with Aakshi Sinha of Tink Media.
Thanks to Michael Castañeda for mixing and mastering this episode. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram @plasticaudio.
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TRANSCRIPT (This is a rough AI-generated transcript for immediate accessibility, please excuse any mistakes.)
[00:00:03] KATTIE LAUR: Hi, I'm Kattie Laur. I am a freelance podcast producer. I make a bunch of podcasts for a bunch of people, including my own called Alpaca, My Bags. And I also write the Canadian podcasting newsletter Pod, the North. [00:00:15][11.3]
[00:00:16] COURTNEY KOCAK: Hey Podcast Besties. Welcome back to the show dedicated to making your podcast the best it can be. I'm Courtney Kocak your BFF in helping you grow and monetize your show. And today's episode is chock full of advice and inspiration for how to get started as a freelance producer. I know there are a lot of besties in the house that are eager to get their podcasting career started, and this is the episode for you and for all the existing producers in the House. We are also going to talk about how to avoid burnout. Plus, we're going to give you some indie podcasts behind the scenes, maybe some commiseration and of course, some podcast marketing inspiration. Would it be an episode of podcast Bestie if I didn't offer a little bit of that? Today's guest is none other than Katie Lau of Pod the North. So we also have some extra resource recommendations specifically for Canadian podcasters. And the whole episode has a very Canadian theme because our presenting sponsor is actually a podcast called The Book I Had to Write. And the second season, which is out now, is all about Canadian authors. So you are going to hear a trailer for that at the end of the episode. But first, let's learn how Katie got started. [00:01:38][82.8]
[00:01:40] KATTIE LAUR: So growing up, I always had like a deep love of public radio. So I just have like very vivid memories of my parents. And I was driving in our car listening to CBC Radio, and in the U.S., it's like NPR and just listening to, you know, all sorts of just fun, different conversations that were less commercial, a little less mainstream, just different ways that different people were talking. So I always wanted to get into radio at some point. And then I ended up going to school for radio and television. [00:02:09][28.5]
[00:02:10] Speaker 2: And so you knew. [00:02:11][1.3]
[00:02:11] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, I, I did. Apparently, I was on the announcements team in high school. Like that's, that's how gung ho I was. So I did eventually get into a program here in Toronto, Ontario, and it was formerly Ryerson, now Toronto Metropolitan University. And I did the radio and television arts program and majored in audio production and then did an internship at CBC Radio, which I was like so pumped to is my dream job, And I was hoping it would eventually lead me to getting hired by CBC, but that did not happen. So I graduated university and had this like audio production degree and basically worked at a hair salon for a year and a half as a receptionist, then worked for a startup company for four years until I started really panicking that I was going to lose all of my skills in audio for those whole six years. I was making podcasts on the side, just like under the table, just to like, stay relevant. Basically, at my internship in 2014, I said, You guys should be doing podcasts, like you should be releasing these radio episodes as podcasts. And they said to me, Podcasting is not going to be a thing. [00:03:20][68.8]
[00:03:21] Speaker 2: And I was like, Oh, okay, I am going to make you regret it. They're like. [00:03:26][5.4]
[00:03:27] KATTIE LAUR: Nobody, nobody listens to podcasts. And I was like, Okay. So I eventually, yeah, was just making podcasts on the side, tried to start a podcast network that did not work out because I was using like a free Wix website to like curate podcasts. And then kind of four years into me working at this random startup company, I was like, okay, I think I'm going to start trying to get some freelance clients and just produce podcasts outside of just making my own for some money. And then once I have too many freelance podcast clients and I don't have enough time to do that and my fulltime job, I'll quit my job and then go into freelancing and then I ended up doing that. It came faster than I expected. The pandemic hit and then everybody was making podcasts, so I got really lucky. I had a really lucky start to my career and just freelance podcasting. [00:04:18][51.6]
[00:04:19] Speaker 2: That's amazing. Okay, so tell me about the podcast that you were making in those in-between years. Like, yeah, were you just, you know, staying sharp? Were you actually finding an audience? Like, what was your experience? [00:04:31][11.6]
[00:04:32] KATTIE LAUR: Oh, yeah. So in the very, very early days when I tried to start that podcast network, my first podcast was a show called Theories Likely Tequila, and it was a drunk philosophy podcast. And really I just wanted to like practice my skills. I bought like my crappy Yeti microphone and was using it like BI directionally so somebody could sit on each side of it and then just kind of had groups of friends gathering, getting drunk and answering philosophy questions. And then that happened for a little while that. I started making a podcast for my partner that was just like a movie review podcast with his friend. And then when I decided that the network wasn't for me anymore, I just stopped everything. And then eventually, a few years later, started working on my show that I still work on now, which is called Alpaca My Bags, which is a travel podcast about making the travel industry better for people on the planet. So I knew I wanted to make a podcast. I just didn't know what I wanted to make a podcast about. And I was telling all my friends about this, and then my friend texted me one day and was like, I just saw this thing on this Facebook group. This girl is looking for somebody to help her make a podcast. So I met up with this, quote unquote, this girl. Her name was Erin Haines, and we met up for a coffee and she told me about her podcast. And I was like, Yeah, let's do this. Like, I want to make a podcast. You want to make this show but don't know how to how to make it. So we just started making this show together and we're about to launch our sixth season. We've been doing it ever since, and we knew that she would have an audience in some capacity because she was a travel blogger and a travel writer and sort of a micro influencer. So we thought we could kind of play around with that audience. And then once the pandemic hit, it was like nobody was traveling. And we had to reevaluate whether or not we could actually make the show anymore because nobody was listening or doing travel, right? So we ended up shifting our show or we decided to make a major focus. We were always sort of doing this, but we decided to make it our major focus and focusing on responsible travel so that when people started traveling again, they had a resource through our show to learn how to travel in a better way instead of just like blowing up the planet over tourism and stuff like that. So yeah. [00:06:46][134.3]
[00:06:46] Speaker 2: And you've done some kind of cool historical explorations. Like I heard an episode about the Hippie Trail. So, you know, you're covering more than just, you know, the kind of travel you might expect. [00:06:58][11.5]
[00:06:59] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, that's the fun thing about having an indie show is that you can just do whatever the heck you want with it. So with the Hippie Trail episode, we were like, We've been really excited about possibly exploring more narrative style episodes, and the Hippie Trail was our sort of pilot into doing that to a more like a higher production degree because we had done it in the past with Aron going to this town in New York called Lilydale that is like known as the medium capital of the United States, where there are the most media psychic mediums anywhere. [00:07:30][31.5]
[00:07:31] Speaker 2: I've heard of this place. [00:07:32][0.7]
[00:07:32] KATTIE LAUR: Yes. So she went there and took my little microphone with her and went with her friends and recorded like a little interview with this medium. And so we did like that was our first ever sort of attempt at a more narrative show. We also visited an alpaca farm just because we should. [00:07:47][15.5]
[00:07:48] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:07:48][0.0]
[00:07:49] KATTIE LAUR: And tried to do like a narrative episode about alpacas. So we could we were just we've been testing the waters and narrative stuff, and I think we want to get a little bit more into that next season. So, yeah, it's we just do whatever we feel like. [00:08:00][11.7]
[00:08:02] Speaker 2: I love that. Okay, so let's talk this breaking into freelancing because this is my journey to like, I was making my own podcasts. I had made a couple at that point and I knew I could do it, but I was like, Oh, it took me a while. It took me probably like six months to figure out like, okay, how do I break into the industry? How do I present these skills that I already have, even though I haven't been doing it really for money? So how did you do it? [00:08:28][26.3]
[00:08:29] KATTIE LAUR: I annoy. I tell people that I know people like that's how I got into the industry was just like being shamelessly annoying about how much I love podcasting and just wanted to do this so bad. So all throughout the years that I wasn't doing this, like in the professional game, I was going to podcast meetups and panels that were going on in my cities and just like being curious. So anything that I was curious about or not sure about, I would note down those people that I just witnessed talking about things and go and talk to them after or email them after and just sort of learn from people that I thought were really interesting and really good at their craft. And one of those people specifically was Katie Jensen, who's the principal vocal for our studios. And Katie and I literally messaged her on Twitter one day and I was like, Katie, how do I deal with this like client thing? I was like, Can I book you for a consultation? I booked her for a consultation, and at the end of it she was like, Don't pay me like this is this, It was great to meet you. Like, I'm glad to see you're doing all this stuff, and I'm glad you came to me. So Katie has been a huge part of, like, me getting into my freelancing career. [00:09:40][70.7]
[00:09:42] Speaker 2: Okay, This is a beautiful story and sounds like the beginning of a beautiful friendship, and I think it is great to be inquisitive and make podcast friends. And if you're proactive like Katie was and is, you will definitely find people who are willing to share resources with you and help you. But one thing I want to point out. How Katie Lord did not email Katie Jensen and say, Hey, can I pick your brain for free? Instead, she said, Hey, can I book you for a consultation? And it was very generous of Katie Jensen to ultimately waive her fee. But perhaps she was more inclined to do so because Katie lured came correct in the first place. I just want to say, for me personally, I absolutely hate it when someone who essentially wants me to tell them how to set up their podcast or newsletter business or want strategic writing advice asks to pick my brain. I don't think that's the right way to approach that conversation. I have such limited time and I give away so many resources for free through the newsletter and the podcast that I spend hours and hours on. And I'm very specifically trying to give value in every single episode or issue. Plus, I teach reasonably priced classes, so it seems really lazy and disrespectful when someone emails asking for a free consultation. Essentially, I would say an alternative is maybe offering a skill trade. If there's something you might be able to help that person with and you're low on cash. But all that to say as a caveat to this whole networking conversation, well, it is good to try to make a lot of connections. Just keep in mind that the pick your brain ask can rub people the wrong way when you are asking them for free work and you obviously haven't done your homework. Okay. And rant back to Katie on her road to freelancing success. [00:11:45][122.3]
[00:11:47] KATTIE LAUR: And then outside of that, I found clients through like Facebook groups. So there is a couple like freelancing Facebook groups where I just saw posts from maybe somebody like a social media manager or accountants or whatever being like, my client is looking for someone who can help make a podcast. So I actually found my first client through like Facebook groups and then through that it's all been sort of word of mouth as far as I go, because I just try to build connections and I try to aim to work with people long term. And then the other sort of source that I found freelance clients through at the time was something called the quill marketplace. So Quill at the time, now it's called co-host and it's more of an RSS feed provider. But Quill used to be co-host and they had a marketplace where podcast freelancers. So I just kind of created a profile there, and that's how I met one of my first clients, Douglas, who is the Beta Cat podcast, and I've been working with him ever since too, because that podcast is it's an extension of their publication, which is a Canadian tech publication. So yeah, I basically I just try to find clients where I can and make connections. [00:12:52][65.3]
[00:12:53] Speaker 2: Now that's, I mean, smart. I was just talking to someone and they were like, I felt self-conscious that I got the job through a referral and I was like, That's how it works. [00:13:04][11.4]
[00:13:05] KATTIE LAUR: That's like. [00:13:05][0.3]
[00:13:06] Speaker 2: One. That's yeah, but. [00:13:07][1.9]
[00:13:09] KATTIE LAUR: That's like the goal. The most embarrassing thing is like trying to just cold email people because I had a spreadsheet going in the first like I think six months of my career where I only had two freelance clients and I had a spreadsheet going of ideas that I would pitch to brands to make branded podcasts. And it was like shooting for the stars, like Starbucks, like lemon, like big brands, where I was like, I have an idea for a podcast for them. [00:13:38][28.6]
[00:13:38] Speaker 2: Give me $3,000, I will make you something. [00:13:40][2.4]
[00:13:41] KATTIE LAUR: I didn't pitch any of the ideas. I was like, Wait to watch imposter syndrome for that. But I think I was doing it for practice too, because I was thinking a lot. I actually one of my favorite podcasts of all time was the Cut on Tuesdays, and I say the cut on Tuesdays because I really did like the farmer version of it the best. [00:13:58][17.3]
[00:13:59] Speaker 2: Tell me about it. I don't remember. [00:14:00][1.2]
[00:14:01] KATTIE LAUR: So it's an extension of New York magazine's The Cut. And what I loved about it so much was that they incorporated like people from the cut, like staff members into just talking about women's stuff. Like not even issues, just stuff. There was a really good episode that stuck with me about how to host a dinner party. And so the host, Molly just was talking to this. I think it admin person who worked at the cut, who worked in the office and had was a terrible cook and she was telling them like she really wanted to host a dinner party for her staff members and friends at the Cut and the whole episode followed her trajectory on learning how to cook like a four course meal. And they had this like the I forget the name of the chef, but it was the chef who wrote salt fat acid. [00:14:51][50.1]
[00:14:52] Speaker 2: He Oh, yeah, I can't remember her name. She's either. [00:14:55][3.2]
[00:14:55] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, but she came on and was teaching her some stuff and then it followed her, like, through, like a little voice memos that she was recording. Trying to make cream puffs for the first time and it going like horribly. And then it followed like her coworkers showing up and you could hear them coming through her front door and like reacting to her food. And it was just such a fun way to think of how a brand could incorporate all their employees into making a really engaging podcast. And I was like, That is how you do branded podcasting. Like you don't make it salesy, you don't make it about like your bottom line. You make it about like your values and the people behind your brand. And so that's why I wanted to make a branded podcast so bad, because I thought, Wow, this is such a creative and interesting way of doing it right? And there are so many other ways that you can incorporate personality and values into a podcast rather than like your bottom line. So that was a big inspiration for me. [00:15:48][52.7]
[00:15:48] Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah. XO Jane, there was a lot of problems with XO Jane, but one of the things about that office and they weren't doing audio at the time, it was just like editorial online stuff, but that was their vibe too. Is there like incorporate everyone like New The Office and that that is kind of a cool way to. Yeah. Make it feel alive. I don't know. [00:16:10][21.8]
[00:16:11] KATTIE LAUR: Especially when it feels organic. There's this definitely a sweet spot because I've tried it with other clients and I think I almost got there. But there's a sweet spot. You have to have management like all in and have that trust from your clients to really make something like that work. Otherwise, I've tried it on other shows and it like if management or higher ups get involved too much, they really start to script their employees and then it's just like, Ooh, just is bad vibes and it comes off really cringe. So you have to find a sweet spot and like give people the tools to educate them on the power of like what it should sound like, how to be organic on a podcast and not like be too scripted and why and which is very frustrating when you work with brands totally like. [00:16:55][44.0]
[00:16:55] Speaker 2: Hey, Besties. I partnered with Mo Pod as the season one sponsor of this show and it has exceeded my wildest expectations. It's helped me reach new listeners. I have over 23,000 downloads and I've already doubled my season one goal and we are only on episode eight and it's helped me further monetize the show. So if you don't know, mobile data is an effective, targeted way to promote your show, it helps you find listeners or they already live on the Internet and it's already trusted by industry giants like Conde Nast, Iheartmedia and the HubSpot Podcast Network. And that's because it works. But mobile isn't just for the big guys. Mo Pod Boost is perfect for indie podcasters like us, and if you are a paid bestie, you already know it's been my favorite advertising experiment to date. I've used it on all my shows and you can try it for just $100. Plus, if you're a bestie, you can get 10% off with the link in the description. So try it out and let me know what you think. So you have a collaborator on all pack of my bags and you know you do all this client work. So how do you make sure your quality is up to your standards as far as craft? And how do you pitch your ideas in a way that gets these other people on board? Like, tell me about that part of the process. [00:18:15][80.0]
[00:18:16] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, honing my craft is kind of an ongoing effort for me, so I am just genuinely curious about podcasting all the time. And I'm really lucky because of how much effort I think I've spent on building connections, not necessarily by referrals, but just by like meeting people. I'm very curious about who I think do really cool work and are really good at their jobs. I'm just always asking them questions and like learning from them. So one of my coworkers at Vocal Fry Studios, his name is Jay Colburn, and I've learned so much from him about scripting podcasts, and I think that's really elevated the way that I script shows for any of my clients now at this point. And then like working with different hosts too, is always a different experience. So I've been learning how to craft scripts in multiple different ways for multiple different brains of how they read scripts and learning to not get so married to ideas. Because sometimes hosts will go totally off script, but it ends up being really good and sometimes they don't, and having the confidence to be able to jump in sometimes to be like, Can you go back to this thing and like trust your producer? Intuition is like really good. So I would say like, I don't think I have all of my craft honed in. I don't think I'm like the perfect producer, but I think I'm a really good producer because I'm open to learning and like just incorporating things that I see other people doing really well and trying to mimic them myself. And I don't think that makes me a copycat by any means. I think it just sets the standard for the industry of like what is good work? [00:19:48][92.0]
[00:19:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, that scripting stuff that's so interesting. Give us like a scripting tip that you've picked up. [00:19:55][6.2]
[00:19:55] KATTIE LAUR: Ooh, I wish I had one right off the bat for you. [00:19:58][2.8]
[00:19:58] Speaker 2: Is it just a voice thing that you're like. [00:20:00][1.8]
[00:20:00] KATTIE LAUR: A voice thing? Yeah. Like if I'm scripting, like. Maybe a more narrative opening for a host. I'm definitely thinking about what is their natural way of talking like first, because I have a very natural way of talking and I tend to write very much in the way that I speak. And so what I think is a funny script might not necessarily be funny when somebody else says it. So there's been a couple of times where all kind of dumped something down that I think is really funny. And then I will kind of reread it again in how I think that person's going to say it. And then I'll have to reevaluate some of the word choices that I use. Also, keeping sentences like really tight is something that I've gotten really a lot better at, I think, because I am like the Queen of run on sentences. And so when it comes to the podcasting space and radio, like I knew this from the get go, it's just not a natural thing for me. So I've really had to like, do a couple passes on scripts to see how I can condense sentences and make things easier to say. Yeah, and using like very basic language and scripting podcasts is kind of the key thing that I've always thought about. The best tip I ever heard was be the idiot for the listener. So think about things that are happening in your conversation. If you're especially if you're talking to an academic and kind of writing a script in a way where your host can be the idiot for the listener. So your listener is always engaged and they're not like off Googling, what does this word mean kind of thing? You can script in there that your host asks that question or use that time at the top to explain things a little bit better. [00:21:36][95.6]
[00:21:36] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like a common misconception when people start interviewing you, podcasting is just like you have to be the expert, you have to have it all figured out. And it's like, actually not. It's like much better when you stay curious and you're asking questions and admitting when you don't know things, because probably people listening are thinking the same thing 100%. [00:21:55][19.0]
[00:21:56] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, you're experts there to be the expert. You as the host are there to be the learner. Like I always the one thing we do with back of my bags is we always say like we're learning on behalf of our listener, like we are not the experts. That's why we bring on guests to articulate things like from their own experience or from their journalism or from their credentials. And we're just the ones to unpack all the questions to make it all makes sense. [00:22:19][22.8]
[00:22:20] Speaker 2: Unpack? Yes. Okay. So I worked on a lot of shows, celebrity shows, CEO shows, and I hope to never know what I'm talking about on this podcast, but I got severely burnt out in a way where I was like, okay, I'm only working on my own stuff right now because like, I just don't want to do that, you know? So talk to me a little bit about how to avoid burnout. Oh yeah. [00:22:48][28.1]
[00:22:49] KATTIE LAUR: I am the wrong person for that question. I am like slowly and like, steadily unpacking burnout. Like to be totally frank with you, like beginning of 2022, I fully found a therapist to help me unpack burnout because I was just like, totally just dumping everything on my plate and saying yes to a lot of things that seemed like really good opportunities, and a lot of them were really good opportunities. But what I did do all throughout last year was it was kind of the beginning of last year that was really intense for me. And then I actively booked a lot of time off so that I could have vacation days to look forward to. I think I ended up booking off too much time because I could have made a little bit more money last year, but it was a good learning experience and I'm really lucky to have a partner and be a dink. You know, I'm dual income. No kids dig blood with a dog, so I am lucky to have somebody to lean on. And that's, I think, a privilege to have. But last year was a bit of an experiment for me. And then throughout the year I kind of decided, okay, like what kind of tasks do I really like to do and what kind of tasks do I never want to do again or want to like get rid of a little bit more? And one of those things for me is editing. Like, I really like editing audio, but it is so isolating and I love to chat and I like to talk to people. I really like to write and I like to come up with ideas and do more producer stuff. So I was like, okay, throughout the year I'm going to find ways to kind of offload a little bit of that work and develop into my producer role a little bit more and just be more of a showrunner. I haven't got there yet. It's a slow and steady process, but I have been saying no to more opportunities now where I'm like, Oh, I could make some money there, but I could also focus on honing in my craft and find ways to up my hours with other clients to do that. So one of my editing gigs that I started out with, I ended up pitching to them a more producer role in addition to that. So now I'm helping them more with like chasing guests and pitching stories and organizing all of that stuff and the workflow of things. And that's actually made my editing life a lot easier. It was so chaotic before because they didn't have any producer. So I've just been finding like little opportunities to show the other skills that I have in the clients that I already have and kind of upgrade the work that I work with them instead of like adding more onto my plate. That way I get to work on the skills that I like and not worry about money as well. [00:25:22][152.3]
[00:25:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a part of it too. You know, you're like saying yes to everything to break in and then you get to the point where you're like totally burnt out and you have to start being like, No. [00:25:32][10.0]
[00:25:33] KATTIE LAUR: It's tough to. Yeah, you don't know you're burnt out until it's too late. And like, that's one of the things I was like unpacking in therapy was like I had a bit of anxiety around like that. I was just taking on too much and that I would end up in burnout. Like for me, especially right now that I'm writing my newsletter, like, that's been going really well for me and I'm like a little bit shocked at how well it has been going. So that's just another thing on my plate that I'm like really passionate about doing and love to do. But I'm like my taking on too much at this point. So I'm like, at this point, actually my advice is I did find out a workflow. So at the beginning of this year, I looked at how much money do I actually want to make? Do I need to make a month and what are my current gigs and are they getting me there? And okay, I am getting there. So now it's like my goal to make a little bit more money so that maybe I can like travel or something, or maybe like I might have enough money to have a baby one day and who knows? So like, so at the beginning of the month, I do kind of a projection as to like, all right, how much money am I going to make this month based off of like my current gigs? How much money would I like to make and what are the actual tangible steps that I need to get to that? So I have a couple of opportunities within my roster of work where I can like write a newsletter for someone or I can write a blog for someone or I can take on some more production work in some places, or just let people know that I'm free, or because I also do consultations, I can open up my consultation site to take on some more stuff. So look at like other ways to make a little bit of money if I can. And then that way I can like kind of look ahead to the month and see what's coming up. And then also look at my time off and see like, are things getting like a little bit crazy? How much time am I going to be working every day? Am I going to have weekends? All of that stuff? So doing those projections and like coming up with actionable plans on like how to make the money that I want to make has been really helpful. And then lately it's been looking at my projections for the month and saying, Oh, you don't have to do any more work. You already hit that because you've got a pretty good workflow. So now maybe you're going to have like seven week days off next month. Like, who knows? So that's kind of where I'm looking at Burnout right now is just trying to project the month ahead a little bit better. [00:27:56][142.7]
[00:27:56] Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, and editing. Oh my God. [00:27:59][2.5]
[00:28:00] KATTIE LAUR: It's so isolating. [00:28:00][0.4]
[00:28:01] Speaker 2: I love it though, and I like I'm very good at it. I think. So. It's a very hard task for me to offload like Mike does all my mixing and mastering, and he's awesome at that. So that's covered. But like as far as assembling the episodes and like going through and doing the nitty gritty of like cutting out the shit that I don't like, which I'm very detailed about, it's very hard. I mean, I'm like going to have to manifest an editor into my life that I trust anyone should. [00:28:33][32.1]
[00:28:34] KATTIE LAUR: I just honestly kind of what I did at the end of the not to be too woo woo, but I feel like I really did manifest some stuff at the end of last year and so far so good. Like, I don't know. [00:28:44][10.8]
[00:28:46] Speaker 2: Okay, let's put it out there. Now a quick word from our sponsors. Hosted by book coach Paul Zak Chayefsky. The book I had to write is a show featuring today's most fascinating and dynamic nonfiction and the stories of what went into writing those books. And now Paul is back with a new season of episodes featuring Canadian writers. Why Canada? Well, because it's got some of the best nonfiction being published these days. And because it's the place where everybody famous comes from. You just didn't know it. Take the latest episode with Susan Olding, author of the essay collection Big Reader. She talks about battling self-doubt about how a random comment on a Facebook group inspired her to write one of her best essays, and how experimenting with form can push writers into unexpected new directions. Like last season, you'll also learn tips and secrets to getting your own book done. New episodes are out every other Tuesday. Go to the book. I had to write dot com to find episodes, transcripts and more. That's the book I had to write dot com or subscribe in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. To all the women podcasters listening. Submit your news to podcasting by the moon and subscribe for free. You will join 1000 plus readers Keeping up with women in podcasting news and recommendations Each Full Moon. This newsletter is such a treat, and I'm telling you ladies, I have been featured in podcasting by the Moon, and I have to say it's a great outlet to potentially have your work featured. So make sure you subscribe. Keep your listeners coming back for more. Sound Judgment is a podcast and newsletter that unpacks the techniques of top hosts and producers so you can learn from the best. This is an excellent podcast and newsletter. If you want to improve your craft, which we all want to do, right, there is a link in the episode description. Listen and subscribe now. Lizzie Borden Audio is the only show that dramatizes the trial testimony of Lizzie Borden in 1892, beginning with the witness statements and Lizzie's famous inquest, which was ruled inadmissible. I know it's weird to think about murder and like a delightful listening experience in the same sentence, but this podcast really is. And if you are interested in the case and its history, you definitely want to check it out and discover the world of Skin Care Redefined in the Skin Report hosted by Dr. Simran Sethi. Dive into the science of skin care and treatments, especially for women of color. Dr. Sethi has got you covered from debunking tick tock trends to addressing common skin issues like hyperpigmentation and inflammation. Learn about the benefits of retinol, vitamin C, medical spa treatments and more. As the founder of Skin by Dr. Sethi, she also reveals the secret ingredients that can elevate your skin care routine. Everyone deserves to feel beautiful, and the skin report is here to make it possible. Tune in today and you can buy a sponsorship Tip podcast, bestie at podcast BestBuy.com slash advertise. Okay, now back to the show. So let's talk marketing for a second. So that's the other side of this is like you put in all the work, you make a really awesome podcast and then it's like, No, I have to reach people. So tell me about like your biggest kind of marketing takeaways that you've learned and creative ways to do that too. [00:32:32][226.1]
[00:32:33] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, I mean, marketing is such a solid. Thank you. I was gonna say that it sucks. It truly sucks. So for Erin and I with our show Alpaca, My bags, we had a really good game plan in the beginning of really doing like foot on the ground manual marketing. [00:32:53][20.2]
[00:32:54] Speaker 2: Like 1 to 1. [00:32:54][0.8]
[00:32:55] KATTIE LAUR: Yep. So I knew we had to build a community around our show and leverage the community that Erin already had and be having, like actual engaging conversations with people around travel and responsible travel. And so I like, knew it. So I had a game plan that was like, I'm going to say some. I'm going to like look up hashtags in the travel space on Twitter every single day and make at least one reply to something that is like engaging worthy, like something that is like a conversation starter and feels organic isn't like a wow, great post or like a random like kind of thing. So I knew that we had to have organic engaging stuff going on on our show. So that was part of our plan. So I was doing that on Twitter. Erin was doing that on Instagram, and at first we were spending way too much time creating content for Instagram. So we actually ended up archiving all of our content. Instead of our top nine posts, and we just focused now on posting reels whenever we post anything because that's all people are seeing is reels and stories. People don't really look at the grid anymore. [00:34:00][65.2]
[00:34:01] Speaker 2: Uh huh. [00:34:01][0.2]
[00:34:01] KATTIE LAUR: And then Erin has been working on Tiktoks and just using the same content between TikTok and Instagram reels. [00:34:07][5.8]
[00:34:08] Speaker 2: How's it going? [00:34:08][0.4]
[00:34:09] KATTIE LAUR: It's going all right. Like, we kind of know that social media doesn't really translate to a lot of downloads. And so this is what I was thinking recently is actually I realized this in a workshop I was just in with Jeremy Ends and our Illness and Blat, which was we abandoned our foot on the ground marketing too soon and we got impatient. So also because Aaron just so happens to be a digital marketing queen, like this is her day job. She's always looking at ways to scale things really quickly and like has a lot of really amazing expertise around like SEO backlinks, all of the things on Internet stuff that like I don't know anything about. So she she's been setting up a lot of that stuff too. But we kind of, I think, started to rely on just pushing out like content and relying on those like kind of digital marketing techniques and abandoned the engagement earlier than we should have. And I think we're actually talking about going back to that now because, yeah, it's and the reason why you abandoned it is because it takes so much work, right? Like, right, I'm a freelance podcast producer and an indie podcaster and a newsletter writer. And now I have to like, spend at least 15 minutes a day just like scrolling through Twitter and, like, talking to people. It's like it's a job. So yeah, it's like easy to abandon it. But I mean, that's the reality I think is we still need to get to that 1000 downloads per episode and we're not there yet. And we've sort of been at a plateau for a long time wondering what's been going on. And it's because we just don't have the capacity to maintain the level of community engagement that we need to do. Yeah, so we're hoping to now get some sponsors. We have one sponsor, but we're hoping to get a second sponsor so that we can at least pay someone to help us a bit, whether or not that's like actually engaging but just taking something off our plate so we can focus on that too. So yeah, it's kind of like a chicken and the egg kind of thing. [00:36:02][113.5]
[00:36:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you done any paid? [00:36:04][1.1]
[00:36:05] KATTIE LAUR: I've tried Twitter paid. It was all right, but we haven't tried too many other paid avenues other than, like, trailer swaps and like newsletter features. So yeah. [00:36:16][11.0]
[00:36:17] Speaker 2: You started a newsletter. You basically started your own press maybe to help. I mean, I started mine because I was like teaching and I was also needed to promote my shows and I was like, These are things I want to learn. These are conversations I want to have. I guess I'll just freakin start a media outlet, you know, like to make it happen. I'll, I'll develop this whole business on the side. So tell me about yours, Pod, the North, how it got started, a few of your favorite issues and kind of what you've learned so far. [00:36:48][30.8]
[00:36:48] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, I mean, totally similar story. I started the newsletter because I was frustrated that I didn't know what the heck was going on in Canadian podcasting and everything felt like a secret. Everything that major networks were doing seemed so hidden. People weren't replying to my emails. And I am a professional podcast producer and I was like, How am I supposed to establish myself in this industry where, like, nobody is answering my emails, I don't know what's going on here, and I'm definitely not the only one and like, let alone indie podcasts, like how are they supposed to stand out from like major network shows when like, nobody's taking them seriously and Canadian podcasts are like, you know, there's like major American shows, there's major indie American shows, then there's like, major Canadian shows, then there's Canadian indie shows. Like we're at the bottom of the tier and like, there's way more people in the whole world that are under like indie American shows too. So it's extra hard for us to stand out. So all of that to say, like it didn't seem like anything is doing any any leveraging of the Canadian podcasting ecosystem. No one was keeping anyone in the loop, and that's why I decided to write my newsletter, because I wrote a blog about this that was kind of an open letter on the vocal Fry website being like, Hey, it was about it said, Hey, Canadian Network, stop abandoning indie podcasts. And I then went on vacation expecting like that, that blog to like, blow up and have all these emails in my inbox. When I got back from vacation and I got home and I had nothing, nobody read it, nothing like I think only people my own network read it. So that eventually just had me stewing all summer. And then eventually I wrote my newsletter just to like, put it out there. I was just so annoyed and so frustrated. So that's kind of the mission for my newsletter is just connecting the Canadian podcasting ecosystem. And then some of my favorite newsletters have been the ones I've gotten the most. Feedback are the ones where I do interviews with major Canadian networks. Just ask. Seeing them, Like, what's up? Like, straight up. Tell me what's up. Because I'm noticing that a lot of people are like. I had no idea. Like, thank you for asking them these questions. And I try to be pretty blunt, but nice about it when I ask questions just to get a better idea of what's going on in the ecosystem. And I think like so many more people than I expected, have been reading it. And like, I just went to an event last night and like a whole bunch of people knew who I was and I was like, Oh, the pressure. But I think people are just resonating with the ones where I am just asking questions that people need answers to, that I have questions. So when I see people resonating with the same questions that I have, I'm like, I must be doing something right. But yeah, it's been super, super fun. Now I just need to figure out how to make money from it. [00:39:34][165.6]
[00:39:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Oh my. [00:39:35][1.2]
[00:39:36] KATTIE LAUR: God. And how to shorten it too, because it's way too long. But I can't stop. It's my newsletter. I can do whatever I want with it too. [00:39:42][6.2]
[00:39:42] Speaker 2: You totally can. I have a rule for myself. I try to just do like where it won't extend it, you know, in the newsletter. Yeah. So but it is, it is hard. I wind up cutting stuff every time I go just up to the limit. And then I'm like, No, you got to save that for. [00:39:57][14.4]
[00:39:58] KATTIE LAUR: That's what I need to do. [00:39:59][0.7]
[00:40:00] Speaker 2: What have you learned? Because I've learned some things for my newsletter that I'm like, Oh, this actually is going to help me grow my podcast. Have you learned anything from growing your newsletter that you feel like translates? [00:40:10][9.8]
[00:40:11] KATTIE LAUR: Totally. Yeah. I think it just reestablishes like how important it is to be engaged and have a community around your podcast. Because I've noticed like people are just so many people are talking to me and a lot more people have actually found out about alpaca, my bags through Pod, the North, the newsletter, even though they're like not the same, they're not correlated by any means. It's just two projects I'm working on and a lot of the time I can speak from experience as an indie podcaster because of alpaca, my bags, but just like being open and having conversations with people like constantly about podcasting and just the Canadian podcasting ecosystem is clearly what works. And creating a space to have conversations is like really what's driving people to my my Substack I think so. I think it's the same for podcasting is like the more people you talk about, whatever your niche topic is, the more people will be driven to your show. I think it's boots on the ground marketing. That's exhausting. But if you're a chatterbox like me, you might actually be good at it. [00:41:11][60.6]
[00:41:13] Speaker 2: I love that. Okay, so I'm asking. This is inspired by Lauren Purcell, so I'm asking people now to audit me. So I have three podcasts. I have private parts unknown. It's about love and sexuality around the world. That's like my most probably established show. The Bleeders is about book writing and publishing. It's new and then you're on podcast Besties, so you're probably most familiar with that. Any tips? Just looking at what I'm doing now, is there anything that you're like, Hey, have you tried this? Or maybe you should do more of this or can you stop doing this? [00:41:50][36.1]
[00:41:52] KATTIE LAUR: Do I think you're doing everything phenomenally? I love your work so much. So I think you're doing an amazing job. But I would say like, I just want more Courtney personality. Like, I want to know your opinions. I want to know. Well, I want to know what you hate. I want to know what's pissing you off. I want to hear all of your hilarious jokes, even if they don't land. Like, I think vulnerability is one of the most beautiful, amazing and engaging things that podcasts and and written work can have. And so that's what I always encourage people to, to have is just like vulnerability and like showcase their personality to the best they can. So yeah, okay. [00:42:30][38.3]
[00:42:31] Speaker 2: I'm going to do a crying segment after this. [00:42:33][1.6]
[00:42:33] KATTIE LAUR: I love it. I'm so excited. You can cry right now. Ready? [00:42:36][2.6]
[00:42:37] Speaker 2: Now let's cry about burnout. [00:42:40][3.2]
[00:42:41] KATTIE LAUR: Oh, my God. I'll invite you to my next therapy session. [00:42:44][3.1]
[00:42:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be a genuine cry. Well, so I have some Canadian podcasting students, and I know Pod. The North is what I'm telling them. It's like the ultimate resource. But are there any other resources that you would tell them specifically to check out? [00:43:00][15.3]
[00:43:01] KATTIE LAUR: Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate it. I also love the Vocal Fridays newsletter, which sometimes I sub in, for which I did this week and made a bunch of mistakes on, but that's fine. [00:43:11][10.3]
[00:43:12] Speaker 2: So while I didn't notice but I think. [00:43:14][2.0]
[00:43:15] KATTIE LAUR: The Vocal Fridays newsletter is great because there's a lot of jobs there and we highlight a lot of freelancing info and stuff like that, which is something I don't do on my newsletter consciously because I know Vocal Fridays is already doing a great job and like mine's more just like news and community based and the Vocal Fridays is more like industry work based. So you'll find lots of great jobs on that newsletter and freelancing gigs, stuff like that. If you are in the Toronto area, I would definitely check out the Toronto Women's Freelancing Facebook Group. Even though it's on Facebook, nobody's. On Facebook anymore. The group is really helpful and there's lots of like really amazing women in there who are based in Toronto doing freelance work and people ask each other all sorts of like questions like, Hey, I'm a freelancer and maybe I want to have a kid that one day. Like, how the heck do you do maternity leave? Like, like all sorts of stuff. There's like accountants, everybody is on there. So that's really great. And then I would also check out if you just want to stay in the loop about like industry stuff and what major networks and big studios are thinking about. Check out the Pacific Content newsletter as well, because they post a lot of like branded podcasting stuff and just articles and blogs about the work that they're doing. So it's cool to just kind of stay up to date on like what it looks like in sort of the corporate sector of podcasting as well. So yeah, those are my hot tips. [00:44:39][83.7]
[00:44:39] Speaker 2: Those are good. Yeah, good recs. So thank you so much for coming on and being a podcast bestie. Is there any final thoughts you'd like to leave the Besties with? [00:44:48][8.8]
[00:44:48] KATTIE LAUR: This has been so fun. So thank you for having me. Um, I would just say like, if you're still wondering whether or not you should make a podcast or you don't know where to get started. The best advice I ever have gotten was just get the tape, just get the tape hit record and just record something and that'll get you started. You'll figure out what you sound like, what you don't like, what you sound like, how you phrase words, all of those things. Just get the tape. [00:45:13][24.4]
[00:45:14] Speaker 2: Just get the tape. Friends, if you are listening to this episode and you made it this far but you haven't yet started your podcast, just get the dang tape. All right? Thank you, Katie, for sharing so much freelance and indie podcasting wisdom with us today. And thank you for tuning in, bestie. If you haven't already, make sure you check out the last episode with actually, since it's all about podcast marketing and my favorite topic of the moment, recurring collaborations. And I want to collaborate with you bestie. If you leave me a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and you email it to me, I will give you a free shout out on the show podcast. Vesti already has 34 ratings on Apple Podcasts, and I want you to be the next one and I am super eager for my next review. So just give me a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Email it to me and I am going to be talking about you right here next time on the show. Plus, there's another easy way to get featured on the show. You can buy a sponsorship at podcast bestie dot com slash advertise. I have super affordable packages starting at just $30 and check out my other podcast, Private Parts unknown about love and sexuality around the world. And The Bleeder is about book writing and publishing For more of my audio creations and you can follow me inbetween episodes at Courtney Kozak that is. K okay. K on Instagram and Twitter, and I send out lots of newsletter exclusives to my Besties podcast. Bestie actually started as a newsletter. So of course, make sure you're signed up for podcast Bestie on Substack that is podcast bestie dot substack dot com slash welcome until next time happy podcasting by bestie. [00:47:02][108.8]
[00:47:09] Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Paul Czapski. I'm a writer, a book coach, and I'm also the host of the book I had to write. And I'm back with the new season. It's full of interviews with authors who had a story they just had to get out there. And this time around, I'm exploring writers and stories from Canada, people like the novelist and critic Stephen Marsh. He says it's harder than ever now for working writers. You know, I think we are sort of in between stages. The last time it was really like this was the jump from patronage to professionalism in the late 18th century, where there was a gap of about 40 years where basically no writer could make a living. And I talked to the writer Susan Olding. She's got one of my favorite all time essays. It's called A Different River. It's part personal history and part love letter to the City of Toronto. And it turns out Susan got inspired after reading another writer's comment on a Facebook page. [00:48:03][53.8]
[00:48:04] Speaker 4: And she said something like, Where are the the essays about Canadian cities? Like, you know, Richard Rodriguez's late Victorians or Joan Didion say goodbye to all that. And it just planted a seed. I mean, I thought, yeah, where indeed? [00:48:21][16.6]
[00:48:21] Speaker 3: And just like last season, you'll learn tips and secrets to getting your own book done and why publishing it will change your life. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows and go to the book I had to write. Dot com. To see transcripts, show notes, and more. I can't wait to have you listen. [00:48:21]